Yes - Close to the Edge - original George Piros U.S. vinyl master...

I just picked this up...mint as mint can be....and for some reason am a bit disappointed with the sound...real mid-rangey...Yet there are some things I love about it....Mostly on side two....Compared it with the later AT/GP cut from the later 70's and that one sounded like the Barry Diament issue but with a bit more low-end energy....and that had no problem with the dropout on Bill's ride cymbal on Siberian Khatru...in fact the first cut sounded like the Rhino in places....hmm...

so....what gives....what's your opinion on this....and other versions...how does the JPN version rate? The German...the MFSL....etc...

I'm confused and until Steve does this one, (please!) I won't be satisfied....it is one of my favourites....of all time....

Any comments or suggestions?

Thanx!

 

Ive never heard a version I'm completely happy with either.

I used to have the MFSL LP which was OK but sold it for $$$$ when I picked up an early UK LP copy in great shape for 2.99 Pounds. It has a nice textured sleeve. I liked the UK better and so far its the best I have heard.

 

Hmm...interesting...anybody else with some expert opinions about this?

 

I've heard a Piros cut of this one but I think it was a later 70s press:

It sucked. Thin as hell. I bet the original UK vinyl trounces it.

Not a fan of Piros. I even suspect that his jacking up of everything he cut may have caused people to think that some of Barry's CDs were "dull" as CDs started to hit the market.

 

Tough one...

I really like the GP first US pressing. I don't have my MoFi anymore, and I haven't yet found a 1st press UK.

 

Don't you find the U.S. first is a bit...um...upper mid-range heavy especially on side one? It is a totally different animal than the second press...

 

Maybe I did have a first press, because that's the way I remember mine sounding.

 

I thought the second cut from the late 70's (lead-out groove on side one was massive compared to the first cut) closely resembles Barry's CD, but without the ride cymbal dropout....

Didn't "Fragile" sell enough for either AP or even Warner to put out CTTE?

I know someone mentioned that they thought the masters were gone for CTTE, (or at least one side) but does someone in the know have any info on it?

 

It's a lot brighter than the UK; which I never cared for. Always sounded like my tweeters blew out, and a suspicion of tape tracking phasiness through the whole thing.

Now, if it had sounded like Relayer, or Fragile, it would have been fine. But it sounded like neither.

I've had the UK, US (what denotes a 'first' Piros here? Are we talking dead wax or just label style?) and the MoFi. Yes the MoFi is good, even great, but the lure of the $$$ made me keep my US copy.

 

First edition Piros would have to be (from memory and the fact that I just received this LAST NIGHT!!!) Broadway address...the matrix number with one crossed out....the one not crossed out ending with 'A' and the AT/GP in the deadwax...not much space between the end of both sides and the label (maybe .5" at best...the second press that I had had all of the above with maybe an inch away from the label for side one and the matrix # had 'D' written at the end...everything is scrawled... there were other markings but I think those had something to do with the plant these records were pressed at ....I could update this when I get home later of course....

 

Well, the one I had sounded night and day from Barry's. Thin and super jacked in the upper midrange to the point of ridiculous. I traded it in recently. I don't think it was an 1841 Broadway.

 

I know many like the US however the 1st issue UK A1/B1 is much better IMO. Although to me it sounds flatter therefore it is not as lively sounding as the US, it also sounds a bit cleaner. I like the MFSL very much but it is tweaked in the extremes however it is the copy I reach when I want to play the LP.

 

Hi Jeff,

I don't know what the answers to the particulars of this album are but some of what I'm reading doesn't jive with my experience of George Piros, which I'd like to share a little bit of in this post.

I had the good fortune to work with George for many years when we were both at Atlantic. He remains one of my mastering heros, perhaps my personal favorite.

I saw/heard George cut many a side, not just for Atlantic but also for some audiophile "names" (also heros of mine) like Bert Whyte --a fabulous recording of Stravinsky's "Soldier's Tale"-- and Joseph Grado (with whom I had a great laugh about the monitoring).

Based on many, many days spent with George in his mastering room and endless discussions with him on the subject, I'd like to make some things clear:
1. George did not (as in NOT) use high pass filtering to roll off the bottom end. Period.
2. George did not use compressors and limiters. Period.

Every record I've heard that George mastered was the best version of that record I've ever heard.

All that said, let me balance it by saying if there is anything George did that I might depart from, it was that in some instances (only some) he would add a dB or two (no more) at roughly 2 kHz to satisfy some producer's desire for level. George, instead of compressing, would give them a bit more in this region where the ear is most sensitive and he called it giving them "ear level".

One other thing: Speaking from my own personal perspective, like 99.9% of the other studios and mastering rooms I've visited, the monitoring in George's room was not what I would call accurate. The acoustic "design" of that room was, to my ears, ill considered and in a word, awful.

So, we have the once-in-a-while light mid boost and we have monitoring that (let's say it straight) sucked. Still, in those days I was listening to vinyl almost exclusively and some of the best vinyl I had contained George's "GP" in the lead out groove.

As I said, I don't know the particulars in this case but perhaps something happened in the plating or some other manufacturing step that resulted in the sound you and others here describe. All I know is, at Atlantic in those days, I had the good fortune to be able to compare masters with what came back from most of the big cutting houses in NY, the rest of the US and from Europe. To my ears, George was number one. And by a long distance.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Could have been the same master, but with the Rockafeller address....I have "The Yes Album" that way and it smokes every other version I have ever heard....

 

For an album originally recorded and mastered in the UK, what tapes did the US LP masterers usually get to work from, for the domestic LP issue?

 

How do you know that the original tapes weren't delivered to New York? Zeppelin's sometimes were..."Every Picture Tells A Story" was....there is a trend that has occurred....

 

I don't. Hence my question. Barry?

 

He claimed that he used copy tapes....that's what were there at the time in the mid-eighties....just this statement
"For an album originally recorded and mastered in the UK" is misleading if you claim you don't know whether it is true....

That is why we need someone who is in the know to answer...and Barry claims that his Atlantic memories are quite fuzzy...he does remember though that he didn't get masters for the CD's....that however does not mean that they were not delivered for a limited time to make the first pressings back in '72...remember, "Who's Next" had its masters in Los Angeles the whole time of it's existence since completion in Olympic in 1971.

 

Hi Paul and SiriusB,

George was at Atlantic for several years before I got there in '78.

I don't believe the Yes --or Zep-- tapes were original masters. My best guess is that most of the older ones were "flat" transfers.

It is possible I'm wrong but I believe they were copies. Most in those days were in plain brown boxes so unless they were specifically marked as copies, who knows?

In almost all instances, I got to hear tapes George worked from, since I had to use them to make cassette masters, 8-track masters (!) and eventually, CD masters. I never heard Piros mastered vinyl that did not match or exceed the tapes he worked from in sound quality.

I'd like to add one thing for consideration: While it is always best to work from original sources, to my ears, the damage engendered by having a copy to work from (as long as it isn't an EQd, limited copy) is much smaller than that caused by a not so great mastering job.

Put another way, I personally much would rather have a record George did from a third generation copy than one most other engineers did from the original master. More often than not in my experience, the engineer will make a larger difference in the finished product's sound quality than what he uses for mastering. (Of course, giving George the original masters, as he had for many of the great Atlantic soul, rock and jazz records, was the best of all circumstances.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks very much for the detailed thoughts on this, Barry.

I haven't heard enough Piros pressings to comment, so I should probably should have refrained from such. I mostly listen to CDs these days, but that little 2k boost you mentioned may be the problem with this one. If you compare the vinyl to your CD, the vinyl sounds almost as if it is sizzling with upper midrange by comparison.

Of course, I could have had a faulty pressing. I'll let others with more Yes vinyl knowledge chime in.

 

Hi Jeff,

That's the thing: George's work, to my ears, never had any "sizzling".

A boost at around 2k is lower than what would bring about a sizzling sound. It would be brighter than not boosting at 2k but not the ear-ripper we've all heard too many of. And when he did that, it was on the rare occasion the producer was in the room with him, pushing for "more" sound, when on his own, I know George went for more Music.

I'm quite confident George did most of his work alone in the mastering room.

(As an aside, I can remember one producer I worked with after I left Atlantic and formed BDA. That fellow actually said to me "You can never boost the treble enough for me to say it is too much." )

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Ouch!

At any rate...George must have rethought his approach after this one because the second time he did it it was WAY mellower...and as I said...close...very close...to what you did...I just thought that there might have been a chance that it was the master used to do this as in the case of Led Zeppelin ll mastered by Robert Ludwig...WAS the master and that was done in the States....(and for Atlantic too!)

Thank you for your chiming in on this one...sheds some illumination on it for sure!

 

Hi Paul,

Use of original masters was possible.
I just know that by the time I got to Atlantic in '78, most of what I saw from overseas did not appear to be original to me. Lots of "flat" copies but few that were clearly originals.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thank you for that Barry...the mystery still is on...

OK kids....what about UK copies? How are they?

 

I have nothing to compare my UK copy to, but I'm happy with it. I guess it would be a second pressing with A/1 and B/2 on the runout grooves (or is it A/2 and B1? I can't recall right now). A friend of mine essentially gave it to me because he "upgraded" to the Japanese mini LP CD!!! I almost felt like I was taking candy from a baby, but at any rate. He kept it in great condition, the surface is clean as a whistle but his cartridge must have been out of whack because the inner grooves are sadly a little damaged...