Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms SACD stereo vs. West German Vertigo

So the 5.1 is the DVD-A.

 

A good question. This thread is the first I've heard of a channel reversal on the WG cd. There could, of course, be more than one version of the WG cd. The only cd version I've ever owned is a Japan for U.S. (Matsushita I think). I've also got U.K. and U.S. vinyl and they have the same channels, but I've never compared my cd to the vinyl. I'll try to check the hi-hat you mentioned and report back. . .

 

5.1 track is on either DVD-A side of a dual disc or SACD layer of a hybrid disc

 

In case anyone is interested, I still have a brand new copy of the DualDisc available:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=210691

 

I'll check my WG for Europe Vertigo once I receive it and will report as well.

 

Let me clarify:

The WG Warner Brothers cd has the channels reversed, my WG Vertigo has them correct! I am sorry for the misinformation! The USA Warner Brothers version is correct and my Japan for USA is correct also! To check yours, the high hat should be on the left on "So Far Away"

 

Here's the naughty West German Warner Brothers version with the channels reversed and a different mastering:

 

The mastering on the Warner Brothers USA, the WG Vertigo and the Japan for USA Matsushita version share the same mastering. These are the only versions I have to compare (along with the WG Warner version which has the reverse channels)

 

That looks the version I have. Mine has a glitch at around 5:15 on "Your Latest Trick" (and, I still strongly suspect, pre-emphasis). This version was sold longboxed in the US early on.

I'd still like to get some feedback from people on the pre-emphasis question...

 

The DVD-Audio [aka dualdisc] is 5.1 only, there is no hi-res 2 channel on it.

My WG for US is the same mastering. Only, and big difference, is the channels are reversed.

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 50.3 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 40.8 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 23.1 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 75.6 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 77.8 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - early DADC.log: Peak level 63.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 50.3 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 40.8 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 23.1 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 75.6 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 77.8 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - Japan for US [Matsushita].log: Peak level 63.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 50.3 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 97.4 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 23.1 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 75.6 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 77.8 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - WG for US.log: Peak level 63.0 %

There is NO pre-emph on any of the 3 WB BOA discs that I have listed EAC peaks for above. I don't know how that myth go started, but I've seen it here in a few threads over the last month. I confirmed using EAC 95pb3 with TOC in a CD only drive that so far has accurately reported pre-emph with 100% success rate. I then ripped and burned one with pre-flag turned on, and when I listened it sounded as if all the air and life had been sucked out of it. Which is what occurs if you try to remove pre-emph from a disc that never had it in the first place. Please note - I do not have knowledge of the WG Vertigo disc.

 

Then that 96/24 stereo track on mine must be a mirage. Surround-only DVD-As ended after the first, botched WEA roll-out.

 

Wasn't BOA recorded digitally in 16/44?

 

Only 24/96 on mine is 5.1, there is no other program on the DVD-Audio side of the dualdisc. Unless there is more than 1 version of this Dualdisc are you sure you not just playing it folded down?

Anyone else have the dualdisc who can weigh in?

 

The DVD-A layer menu also shows the 96/24 5.1 option. My mistake, as the hi-rez stereo track is 48/24, not 96/24, but there IS a stereo track.

 

The WG Vertigo does not have pre-emphasis either.

It got started by someone who found an article that had something about pre-emphasis in the recording process. Somehow it was thought that the mastering had it to. But it's a different part of the recording process that was originally talked about, as best I could tell.

I think we can shut that rumor down now.

 

That's right. I should have put it in player. Neither program on the DVD side is Hi-Res. 24/48 is limit of Audio DVD (not to be confused with DVD-Audio) resolution. In either case it's far too squashed to crap for my taste. A bit better than the SACD maybe, but that doesn't say much.

I'll gladly stick with Ludwig's original CD and for those of you liking a more mordern louder sound the 1996/2000 remaster ain't bad for what it is.

 

There is no pre-emphasis flag on the discs. Not the same thing as not having pre-emphasis in the first place.

I can't speak for why anyone else might be wondering about this, but in my case it comes from this High Fidelity Review article, which explicitly states that BIA was recorded on a Sony DASH 3324 with the "emphasis" stage enabled -- in other words, the original digital multitracks have pre-emphasis. This doesn't necessarily imply anything about any mixes/pressings derived from those multitracks, but it does raise the possibility of a production error.

When I read that article I had just ripped the album to FLAC a few days earlier so I checked my WG-for-US CD (which has the same glitch-caused peak on track 4 as yours) and found (as you did) that there's no PRE flag in the TOC or subcodes. But I also noticed that in the raw audio, the high end on the louder portions -- the snares in "So Far Away", for example -- have a harsh edge that resembles the as-ripped sound on other releases that do have pre-emphasis. Running a frequency analysis seems to support the idea:



The thick colored lines are straight rips from my BIA, the JP-for-US Can't Slow Down and the JP-for-US Harvest blackface DSOTM, the latter two of which are known to have pre-emphasis; thin lines are the same rips after de-emphasizing with Sox. The gray lines are the "Pink Noise -26dB" with/without emphasis tracks from The Digital Domain for comparison. There are clear, obvious differences before and after de-emphasis, their scale is comparable to the with/without emphasis examples from The Digital Domain, and my copy of BIA is very obviously clustered with the two releases that are known to be emphasized.

I've posted a FLAC with excerpts for comparison to illustrate exactly what they all sound like. Please listen to that comparison before blowing off the idea out of hand -- there's obviously some funkiness going on with this pressing, as the track-4 glitch and possible channel reversal indicate. Getting samples from other pressings for comparison -- maybe of say, the ten seconds from 1:40-1:50 in "So Far Away" -- would help determine exactly what's going on.

 

I don't have the ability to listen to those files at the moment, but I have listened to my own WG Vertigo in all ways possible and against the LP. Straight from the CD through a stand-alone CD player going through my PC, and played right from the ripped files on the PC, and there is no difference in sound. Also, the LP played through my PC (but through a receiver with a phono stage, of course) is pretty much the same too. And none of them are the least bit strident sounding. Cutting 10db out of everything from about 3k and up makes it pretty dull.

This same method is how I discovered that my S/T Quarterflash CD (Japanese made target), and a few other CDs I have, did have pre-emphasis. When there is a difference, it ain't subtle one bit. It's piercing.

Pre-emphasis during recording is isolated during those stages. Remember at that time that every transfer of the digital tracks went through a D/A converter to be heard and mixed and back through a A/D converter to digital tape during all those recording and mixing sessions. Pre- and De-emphasis had to occur each time that happened. It was built into the equipment. It wasn't like it is today where the sound files can stay in the digital domain throughout the entire process to mastering.

What that article was talking about was that the session tracks still had pre-emphasis and when the album was remixed to 5.1. The engineers had to remember that when transferring those tracks to modern digital equipment that normally doesn't deal with pre-emphasis. That's all. That has nothing to do with the final mastering.

 

Another clue is the FLAC encoding bit-rate. After de-emphasizing BiA with SOX and re-encoding with FLAC, there is a significant drop in bit-rate (as compared with the FLAC ripped and encoded directly from CD). There is also a significant drop in volume level (when tested with ReplayGain). This happens to all CDs with pre-emphasis I have so far.

If you take any modern CD with no pre-emphasis and de-emphasize with SOX and re-encode with FLAC. There is only a slight loss in bit-rate. The volume change is insignificant.

 

I'm new to the idea of pre-emphasis. So, the de-emphasized samples you have posted is the *correct* way the tracks are supposed to sound? And the "as ripped" are the incorrect way?

 

I've got different readings for my "reversed channels" version that I posted the pic of in post #57. Here's my readings according to EAC:

100.0%

100.0%

56.3%

41.6%

22.7%

72.6%

69.1%

89.6%

56.5%

 

For the samples from Dark Side of the Moon and Can't Slow Down, yes.

What's the matrix code on your version? The artwork on mine matches yours exactly, as far as I can see from your photo. And yours has the US catalog number...so there's more than one WG for US mastering.

 

I have a West German pressing (824 499-2) with the same Peak Levels as the ones posted by steeler1979.

 

What's the matrix code number?

 

Not to nitpick, but a few things need corrected here.

There is a dvd-audio spec, and a dvd-video spec.

Stereo PCM in the dvd-audio spec can be any combination of 16bit or 24bit, with sampling rates of 44.1K, 48K, 88.2K, 96K, 176.4K or 192K.

The dvd-video spec for linear PCM is much more restrictive. It is either 16 or 24 bit, and either 48K or 96K.

I don't have this disc, but it looks to be one of three different options:

1. A fold down of the 5.1 mix (and down converted to 48K)
2. A 24/48 PCM stereo track in the dvd-audio area
3. A 24/48 Linear PCM stereo track in the dvd-video area. This would allow the track to be played in normal dvd players.