Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms" -- missing PRE flag?

An earlier pre-emphasis discussion linked this article discussing the 5.1 remix for the 20th anniversary, in which it's mentioned offhandedly (bolding is mine):

It should be noted that the original transfers [of the master tapes] were recorded digitally to the then new and pioneering Sony 16-bit 44.1kHz DASH format, which at the time only supported 24-tracks. Ainlay also faced the fact that pre-emphasis had been applied to the recordings on the DASH tapes.​

So if the masters had pre-emphasis applied as they were recorded, that implies the CD should have pre-emphasis too -- the alternative being to de-emphasize the CD master rather than just setting the PRE flag, which seems highly unlikely. But my fairly-early copy of Brothers In Arms (Germany for US, matrix [] 824 499-2 07 # []) doesn't have the pre-emphasis flag set -- I checked in the TOC and the subcodes. And I couldn't find the album mentioned in any of the pre-emphasis discussions or lists around here, though I did find a mention on hydrogenaudio claiming that the Vertigo has PRE set.

On a whim I compared a straight rip of the album to the same rip as de-emphasized with sox. It sounded to me like the de-emphasized version was the correct one. (The difference was very similar to what I noticed when comparing straight and de-emphasized rips of a Sanyo JP-for-US pressing of Lionel Richie's Can't Slow Down -- which does have the PRE flag set -- over the weekend.)

Can someone with the Vertigo pressing run it though EAC and report a) whether or not their copy has the PRE flag set (preferably checking the subcodes using "Detect TOC Manually" with v0.95pb3 or earlier), and b) what the AccurateRip CRCs are for that version? Mine are:

Code:

Track  1  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [AD6D63A5]
Track  2  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [5F2A50C9]
Track  3  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [332F1893]
Track  4  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [A9D87DD8]
Track  5  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [74178C76]
Track  6  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [0F454263]
Track  7  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [E0875D6A]
Track  8  accurately ripped (confidence 200)  [6AB599E3]
Track  9  accurately ripped (confidence 199)  [1544CA68]

If the Vertigo has PRE set but the CRCs match my Warner Bros. copy, the Warner would appear to be a defective pressing. Which would explain a lot...and would also make me wonder what percentage of the pre-remastered copies have the same problem.

 

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

 

I just extracted the cd with XLD so I hope it's of some use to you. I notice the nice laid back levels ... no brickwalling here!

X Lossless Decoder version 20100417 (117.4)

XLD extraction logfile from 2010-04-21 12:23:54 +0100

/ Through The Canyon

Used drive : MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-85J (revision FM0S)

Use cdparanoia mode : YES (CDParanoia III 10.2 engine)
Disable audio cache : OK for the drive with cache less than 2750KB
Make use of C2 pointers : NO
Read offset correction : 102
Max retry count : 100

TOC of the extracted CD
Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 00:00:32 | 05:12:13 | 32 | 23444
2 | 05:12:45 | 08:26:20 | 23445 | 61414
3 | 13:38:65 | 04:12:37 | 61415 | 80351
4 | 17:51:27 | 06:33:65 | 80352 | 109891
5 | 24:25:17 | 08:31:23 | 109892 | 148239
6 | 32:56:40 | 06:58:05 | 148240 | 179594
7 | 39:54:45 | 04:40:17 | 179595 | 200611
8 | 44:34:62 | 03:40:65 | 200612 | 217176
9 | 48:15:52 | 06:59:03 | 217177 | 248604

List of alternate offset correction values
# | Absolute | Relative | Confidence
------------------------------------------
1 | 196 | 94 | 200
2 | 383 | 281 | 157
3 | 300 | 198 | 105
4 | 128 | 26 | 93
5 | 869 | 767 | 72
6 | 114 | 12 | 44
7 | 1818 | 1716 | 25
8 | 23 | -79 | 11
9 | 539 | 437 | 7
10 | 1618 | 1516 | 6
11 | 745 | 643 | 6
12 | -521 | -623 | 4
13 | 1930 | 1828 | 3
14 | 1352 | 1250 | 2
15 | -1507 | -1609 | 2

All Tracks
Album gain : 5.00 dB
Peak : 0.794312

Track 01
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/01 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:02:32

Track gain : 5.79 dB
Peak : 0.794312
CRC32 hash : 32BFAC5C
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 37579F86
AccurateRip signature : 1901B9BF
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 134)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 02
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/02 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:06:35

Track gain : 3.23 dB
Peak : 0.794312
CRC32 hash : 7636BA32
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 0A84E1B1
AccurateRip signature : 7A18A5E3
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 133)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 03
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/03 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:01:30

Track gain : 3.63 dB
Peak : 0.447968
CRC32 hash : A54BE434
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 090BCCDE
AccurateRip signature : 5265C99C
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 133)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 04
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/04 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:05:12

Track gain : 9.08 dB
Peak : 0.330719
CRC32 hash : 73538384
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 05EE0A1C
AccurateRip signature : F227D554
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 131)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 05
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/05 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:04:35

Track gain : 13.24 dB
Peak : 0.180634
CRC32 hash : CEEAFA1F
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 9A2D3B99
AccurateRip signature : B362E8CA
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 132)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 06
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/06 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:06:58

Track gain : 6.22 dB
Peak : 0.576874
CRC32 hash : 42EB2622
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 7A66E73F
AccurateRip signature : 93AE7042
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 130)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 07
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/07 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:02:00

Track gain : 4.02 dB
Peak : 0.549072
CRC32 hash : C659ECC0
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 16289172
AccurateRip signature : 9236B330
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 130)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 08
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/08 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:02:17

Track gain : 4.36 dB
Peak : 0.711823
CRC32 hash : 0724A430
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : 309890B5
AccurateRip signature : B9F88C3F
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 128)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

Track 09
Filename : /Volumes/Music/Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms/09 Unknown Artist - Unknown Title-%d-Unknown Year-WAV-Unknown Album.wav

Pre-gap length : 00:04:27

Track gain : 6.82 dB
Peak : 0.449066
CRC32 hash : C943653B
CRC32 hash (skip zero) : F62FEE38
AccurateRip signature : 08F5D4A2
->Accurately ripped! (confidence 124)
Statistics
Read error : 0
Skipped (treated as error) : 0
Edge jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Atom jitter error (maybe fixed) : 0
Drift error (maybe fixed) : 0
Dropped bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0
Duplicated bytes error (maybe fixed) : 0

No errors occurred

End of status report

 

Thanks, Beech. Yours is clearly a different version from mine. What version is yours (label/catalog number/country if known/matrix code)? And if you generate a cuesheet, does it have the PRE flag set?

I'll work on setting up a master list of the different versions -- maybe we can figure this out.

 

The original Brothers In Arms CD has impressive dynamic range. The remasters are far less dynamic.

And correct, there's no pre-emphasis flag on the original.

 

I do not know about the Vertigo, but the original early DADC, and Japan for US do not have nor need the pre flag. I tested using the Japan for US (since the mastering is the same and the sound to me identical) ; I ripped the disc via EAC added the pre flag manually, burned, then listened. It sounded lifeless as if the ceiling (highs) were lowered. Which of course is what happens if you add pre to a disc that does not need it.

Is it possible the article was misinterpreted, wrong or something?

Rick

 

I've done a little more digging...



The above (click for large) is a frequency plot pulled from three releases:

• Dire Straits: Brothers in Arms - DE for US [824 499-2 07 #] 2:30-3:00
• Lionel Richie: Can't Slow Down - Sanyo Japan for US [MCD 6059 402202] 00:00-00:30
• Pink Floyd: DSOTM - Harvest Blackface [CP35-3017 31B2] 15:45-16:15 (original rip normalized to -0.1dB)

The thick lines are from the CDs as ripped, the thin lines are after de-emphasis with Sox. The Pink Floyd and Lionel Richie releases are both known to have pre-emphasis. I have no idea if this is dispositive, but it looks to me like Brothers In Arms has the high-end boosted to a similar degree.

I've also put together a sample FLAC file with ten-second clips from the regions plotted above:

00:00-00:10 - "Great Gig In The Sky" (album normalised to -0.1dB + DEEMPH)
00:10-00:20 - "Great Gig In The Sky" (As Ripped + album normalised to -0.1dB)
00:20-00:30 - "Can't Slow Down" (DEEMPH)
00:30-00:40 - "Can't Slow Down" (as ripped)
00:40-00:50 - "So Far Away" (DEEMPH)
00:50-01:00 - "So Far Away" (as ripped)

In particular, the drum hits in the as-ripped "So Far Away" sound really brittle to me. Thoughts?

Finally -- my copy of BIA has a really nasty click in the right channel about 5:15 into "Your Latest Trick". I'd be curious to know if it shows up on other copies.

 

Today I bought it West German Vertigo release with matrix code 824 499-2 07# and no hub inscription, which also has a nasty click in the right channel about 5:15 into "Your Latest Trick". Apart of the nasty click the CD sounds really great.

/sorry for bump

 

The JVC XRCD is the best, listen to that one. Awesome.

 

West German Vertigo LP or US WB Quiex II promo LP beat the XRCD easily. It is what it is, an early digital recording made with the Sony system. Not hi rez. 48 Khz sampling rate at best, 16 bit.

 

No. The tracks should have had pre-emphasis removed when playing back the multi-track tape. The tape machine would do that upon playback.

The multi-tracks having pre-emphasis has nothing to do with whether the cd has pre-emphasis or not.

 

Mine has it too.

 

WG Warner Bros. also has the click. US DADC and the 3 Japanese pressings I checked don't.