Barry Diament Remaster of Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going

In this thread, the collected wizards of this board identify which discs are Barry Diament's "secret" remaster of Phil Collins' Face Value. As noted in that thread, but not followed up on, Mr. Diament also did a "secret" remaster of Hello, I Must Be Going. How can I identify a disc with this secret remaster (matrix numbers, etc)? US domestic releases are preferred, since they're cheap used.

 

Re: Diament "Hello, I Must Be Going"?

I don't believe we were ever able to identify a definitive "Diament" Phil Collins CD. Many people took a shot at it, but unless Barry can get his hands on one and says "That's mine," we really don't know.

Personally, I'd like to get the answer because these two Collins CDs get a lot of playing time in my house and I'd like to get the best possible sound out of them.

Kevin

 

Re: Diament "Hello, I Must Be Going"?

In that thread, according to JeffMCarney:

US WEA ATLANTIC: TT 47:49
matrix: 3 16029-2 SRC-21
Standard red circle Atlantic label.
This is the Diament mastering, guaranteed.

On that recommendation I bought one yesterday used/NM for $6.99. It does sound rather good. The drums are tight and fast, not like the slower and mushy drums I remember (or maybe just think I remember) on my older disc (in storage and, really, dates from ~1985).

 

Re: Diament "Hello, I Must Be Going"?

But Jeff is not Barry so he is only starting an opinion that he thinks this is a Barry Diament mastering job. Barry himself said that even he would have trouble identifying it.

I would love to get a definitive answer but I think we'll need someone with a lot of different pressings to compare before we get that answer.

Kevin

 

Was there ever a sure-fire way to identify the two Barry Diament mastered Face Value and Hello, I Must Be Going?

 

For me, I drew the following conclusions from this older thread with regards to Face Value:

Original 1st mastering (as available on the WG target CD and also some early Japan for US versions): total playing time approx. 47:20

Barry Diament mastering: total time approx. 47:48

It is possible that later CD versions are based on Barry Diament's transfer (= same timing) but further tweaked, so it is a good idea to try to find a relatively early pressing with the total time of 47:48.

Then, there can still be minor differences in sound quality from pressing to pressing, but these will not be huge like the difference between these two different masterings.

I have no final proof of the above rule, but I am 99% certain that it is correct.

 

For some of the matrix codes check this post:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=1858183&postcount=1

First CD = Old mastering
Second CD = Barry Diament mastering

By the way, don't get confused with my first assessment. I now do prefer the second CD version, but the first one isn't totally bad, just less dynamic, and it does sound a little soft/smeared.

 

If someone just runs an EAC log I should be able to tell you. Barry's discs have certain peak levels that we have established. There will be some 87s and 89.1s in there.

Barry?

 

Hi Kevin, Jeff and everyone,

I don't remember saying I'd have trouble identifying my work, especially in this case. If I did, it may have been in reference to some very short clips someone put up. I'm confident that if I had CDs in my hands, I'd be able to tell my work pretty easily.

I'm not so sure about those 87s and 89s. There should be at least one peak on the CD that gets into the 90s at least. Perhaps this is a function of EAC, which I'm not very familiar with.

When mastering in those days, if I didn't ensure the loudest peak hit full scale, I'd leave only a single LED unlit on the 1630's metering. (That's why I believe the loudest peak should be in the 90s but again, I don't know how EAC does it. For example, some software is designed to show an overload if the signal gets within 1 dB of full scale. It all depends on how the metering is calibrated.)

I wish I could be of more help with this. Even if I still had all my old notes, I did not keep matrix numbers in the notes. I do remember quite clearly that the differences between my remasters and the original CDs was easy to hear even if one wasn't really listening carefully. As Phil said, "Night and day".

Geez! At one time I had example copies of the old and the new for all the records I remastered. I wish I still did.

One more thing, I sent clones of the CD master to several pressing facilities. All the discs that came back sounded different from each other and none sounded indistinguishable from the CD master. Some of the differences folks hear between discs could well be a function of the replication process at different plants. The difference in masterings however, should swamp the pressing differences. Also note that clones from the same master going to different manufacturers might yield a second or two difference in total time, so seeing this does not necessarily mean the masterings are different.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I'm not Barry, but these are the levels of my US copy which seem to match Roland's German copy:

95.5% - 79.4% - 100.0% - 57.7% - 86.1% - 95.5% - 96.2% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 93.3% - 95.5% - 94.6%

 

Well, I was just hoping Barry would chime in, which he has, but those peaks don't look like a Diament to me. Thanks!

 

Actually, they could be.
I'm not saying they are, just that I can't tell for sure by numbers.
My speakers will tell me the answer.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

From what I remember, I think there are 3 masterings of each(excluding the gold issue of Face Value) The 1st was available from 1984-1990. Then Barry's came in. Then it gets kind of foggy after that, maybe mid to late '90's they changed to the recent one, from his. I know the latest WEA pressings peak at 0.0/100% most of the time, so those are definitely not them.

 

Hi Marc,

CDs from the masters I made replaced the originals around (I'm guessing) '84 or '85. I left Atlantic to form BDA in '87 and both of Phil's CDs were done well before then.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Wow...I guess ICE Magazine told us about it five years later!

 

I think unless someone can send a bunch of CDs to Barry, we may never get to the bottom of this. I hear some good things in many of these pressings that I've bought over the years but I've never had one jump out at me and get a "Wow".

Heck, right now, I've pretty much stuck with a old BMG CD for "Face Value". It is less harsh than the target I had. This version has 95.5 %, 79.4 %, 100.0 %, 57.7 %, 86.1 %, 95.5 %, 96.2 %, 72.9 %, 100.0 %, 93.3 %, 95.5 %, 94.6 %, which may or may not be Barry's.

 

That's the FACE VALUE I have, "dead wax" wise (I didn't check the TT). Really nice sound - better than the Gold CD, IMO. Such a great album...

 

Barry, you sure are correct. Already in the first song, it goes up to around 95%. See here:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=1858193&postcount=3

 

Those levels look like Barry's mastering to me. The disc I have sounds like Barry's mastering to me. The clip I sent to Barry a while ago of this CD, he said he thinks that this is his mastering, IIRC. It was a little hard for him to tell because the clip was only 1 minute or so.

This is what he said about the two samples I sent:

 

If the levels listed by Black Elk, 95.5% - 79.4% - 100.0% - 57.7% - 86.1% - 95.5% - 96.2% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 93.3% - 95.5% - 94.6%, are the Barry Diament mastering, then it appears that the early BMG club disc I have has this mastering as well. The levels match.

So, if you find an old BMG CD of "Face Value" with "BMG music club" in the opening where there's usually a UPC, then it might have the "BD master".

 

Anyone have EAC numbers or matrix's for Hello, I Must Be Going?

 

Here you go:

Atlantic 80035-2 (99263-2) - Made In USA by WEA Manufacturing Inc.

Matrix = wea mfg. logo ~ Y10310 ~ M1S9 CI ~ 3 80035-2 RE-1 01 (~ indicates blank space)

EAC levels: 94.8% - 96.5% - 94.0% - 94.8% - 86.9% - 99.8% - 90.5% - 97.0% - 100.0% - 67.0%

 

Hmm. I guess the Japan 20P never got this mastering. Here's what I got.


EAC extraction logfile from 16. July 2007, 15:46 for CD
Phil Collins / Hello, I Must Be Going!

Used drive : _NEC CD-RW NR-9300A Adapter: 1 ID: 1
Read mode : Secure with C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
Combined read/write offset correction : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

Other options :
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


Track 1
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\01_I Don't Care Anymore.wav

Peak level 83.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 29133117
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\02_I Cannot Believe It's True.wav

Peak level 88.7 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC CF97B5B8
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\03_Like China.wav

Peak level 79.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 5CEAC8F5
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\04_Do You Know, Do You Care .wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC A0AE987D
Copy OK

Track 5
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\05_You Can't Hurry Love.wav

Peak level 78.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC B9930FB3
Copy OK

Track 6
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\06_It Don't Matter To Me.wav

Peak level 92.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 13622593
Copy OK

Track 7
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\07_Thru These Walls.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC EF18BEBA
Copy OK

Track 8
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\08_Don't Let Him Steal Your Heart Away.wav

Peak level 79.6 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 9C120DB2
Copy OK

Track 9
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\09_The West Side.wav

Peak level 98.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 563952E2
Copy OK

Track 10
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Phil Collins - Hello, I Must Be Going!\10_Why Can't It Wait 'Til Morning.wav

Peak level 53.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC E3C1EEC2
Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report

------------------------------------------------------------

 

To try to assist with this thread, I have access to two versions of “Hello, I Must Be Going”:

The first is Atlantic 80035-2 (99263-2), Made in USA by WEA Manufacturing. Red ring. Matrix number 3 80035-2 SRC+15

Running time: 45:46

The EAC log file peak levels: 94.8 – 96.5 – 94.0 – 94.8 – 86.9 – 99.8 – 90.5 – 97.0 – 100 – 67.0 Seems to match Black Elk’s RE-1.

The second is WEA International 299263 (80035-2), Manufactured in Germany by TELDEC Record Service GmbH. Silver face, black inner ring. This disc was borrowed and returned when we were trying to do a Phil/Genesis best disc comparisons in our collections so sorry, no matrix numbers.

Running time: 45:51

The EAC log file peak levels: 87.2 – 91.7 – 83.2 – 100.0 – 79.8 – 97.0 – 99.6 – 89.5 – 97.6 – 54.2

I think I have the BD Face Value based upon BD’s results in the other thread (post 104 of that thread) – German CD, first track peak level of 95.5% (matching the peak levels of US WEA Atlantic matrix: 3 16029-2 SRC-21). To me, the Face Value CD sounds great, better than the Atlantic Gold that I have.

IMHO, this German disc of HIMBG sounds nothing like the suspected BD Face Value. The drums are well, sloppy. Whereas the mastering of the USA disc, especially the sound of Phil’s drums, sound similar to Face Value.

 

So it looks like there are at least three different masterings of this title.

USA version
peak level track 1: 94.8%

German version (this is a later German version, not the target)
peak level track 1: 87.2%

Japanese pressing 20P2
peak level track 1: 83.0%

I have the German version as listed above. If the other owners could post a short clip of the other two versions, I can do a quick comparison. A one minute sample of "You Can't Hurry Love" would work fine.