Taking the next step: Turntable upgrade?

I got into vinyl about 2 years ago and love the sound of it. When I was originally doing research on buying a TT, I ended up with the AT PL120, fitted with a Denon DL-160. I like it but have been looking into upgrading to the next level of turntables, the problem is, there are so many to choose from, it can make your head spin. So, I need some suggestions from the fine folks here, I don't have a huge budget or anything but I would like to step up to something a little nicer than what I started with.

 

The VPI Classic seems to be the hot item these days. Ive read nothing but good reviews of it. A used Linn lp12 might be your ticket if you like to tweak and upgrade things as you go. Used Linns and parts and mods are plentiful.

 

Seems the new tables of choice are the Rega or Music Hall. To me it's more fun to find an older table and bring it up to snuff. That being said you may spend more on an older table with upgrades....kind of depends on the look you want. That TT and Cart you have is good stuff, especially the cart.

Are you using the built in pre or a phono preamp on your receiver/pre? Perhaps a better option would be to upgrade your preamp. For $200 that table's preamp likely isn't anything special, especially for a nice cartridge like the Denon. I was looking for an upgrade to my preamp as well and was reading up on the Yaqin tube models. Really got some nice reviews and were gaining some serious traction in the field. Apparently there is a Canadien seller who is the best to use. Couple of models to work with in their line up. I ended up going from a Harmon Kardon PT-2300 to a B&K Pro MC 101 .....hasn't arrived yet but I suspect it will shortly. Had too many people tell me the preamp is the most important piece of the puzzle with analog.....if it can't dance with the other high quality pieces in the analog chain those other pieces are useless and choked.

What other gear are you using?

Check out ebay here for that Yaqin.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ph...+preamp&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

See you're from mass....and mentioning canadiens, did you happen to see the beat down the Bruins gave them the other night? Sweet!!!

 

Right now I go through a Cambridge Audio 640p preamp and really like the sound. I have it hooked up into my PC soundcard(M-Audio 2496) for ripping. Yes, quite the beatdown put on Montreal, unfortunately, they fall into the good game/bad game mentality, they follow up a great win with a real crappy game against Detriot.

 

I bought a Rega P3-24 about 6 months ago and couldn't be more pleased. Not sure if this is in your price range but something to consider.

 

What input load are you running the DL-160 into?

 

Yeah, definitely look into the Rega's.

 

Yes! The OP could get a used Technics SL-1x00 of some sort if he likes the styling of his current TT but simply wants a more solid performer. Or he could go with another vintage table--Thorens, Dual, or any of the non-Technics Japanese manufacturers. The choice is endless!

 

I just set-up one last night. What a huge PITA. Using it isn't much more fun. It looks great but the unipivot arm is a real pain.
-Bill

 

Depending on your budget, I'd recommend the Pro-Ject Xpression III with an Audio-Technica 150 MLX Cartridge. What's nice about this table is that it plays 33/45/78 and you can upgrade the speed box if you wish. Also, you can easily adjust the VTA and Azimuth with this arm. Along with a Mint LP BestTractor and a Fozgometer azimuth meter/Ultimate Analogue Test LP, you can get the best cartridge alignment possible. I think proper cart alignment is one of the most important steps of getting great sound and Pro-Ject's arms are great for this (they prefer compliant MM carts though). Rega is nice, but azimuth and VTA aren't really that easily adjustable.

 

The best table, bar none, in the $1500 or less, price range is the Clearudio Concept. It's not quite as good as my Michell Gyo SE MkII, SME V, and Shelter 501 MKII, but it's 85% of the way there. The arm is fantastic, and alone is worth $1500, IMHO. Folks that have had both have said the Concept outperforms the Rega P5, which is it's closest competition in this price range.

Here's mine, set up as a mono-only deck, using a Grado Reference Sonata1 mono cartridge. For some reason, wood-bodied carts like the Grados and Clearaudio Maestro Wood work really well on this arm. I use this for playing my collection of classical and jazz monos. I love this table, and if I only had about $1500 or so to spend on table, this would be my choice hands-down, and I am big fan of Rega, so that says something.



If that's out of your budget, I'd recommend a Rega P3-24.

 

A 2nd vote for the Clearaudio Concept, it is by far the best bang for the Buck under $1.800, as I just got telling a friend whom is looking to upgrade from his Music Hall MMF - 5.1SE, the Concept would be my bare minimum with the Well Tempered Amadeus being an the final frontier.

Regards,
Oscar

 

What exactly are you griping about?? If you're referring to the initial wobble when you move the cartridge over the lead in groove, it's something you get used to by the 3rd record you spin. I love mine, and thought it was a snap to set up. But I agree, the uni-pivot is very much a VPI thing, you either love it or hate it.

 

What's your budget Mike?

 

I completely agree. I have a theory that undamped VPI unipivots are constantly exhibiting their Parkinsonian behavior while in the groove. If you want a good unipivot, get a Graham. I heard Micheal Fremer say exactly the same thing at his TT setup seminar at RMAF in 2009 with respect to optimizing channel crosstalk via azimuth adjustment.

I'll take an SME arm any day of the week.

 

What is your theory based on? Is it empirically based or just regurgitating Fremer.

 

As a person who has owned a number of both unipivots and conventional bearing arms they both have their benefits and drawbacks. Neither is anymore difficult to setup.

 

It's partly based on personal experience...cueing the arm with that shaking behavior leads me to think that just because the grooves are stopping the visible shaking, doesn't mean that it's not going on deep in the groove where you can't see it.

Regarding Fremer, I'm not regurgitating him, I'm stating what his answer was to someone in the audience at the seminar who used a VPI arm when Fremer was addressing how critical setting azimuth correctly was in optimizing channel separation, as measured in dB by the Feickert software. Fremer said that he really didn't like the undamped VPI arms because in his view, they were always changing azimuth, even when in the groove. This in his view, leads to less than optimal channel separation. If you would like more info on his views, my suggestion would be to contact him directly and discuss it with him.

Regarding getting some empirical data, I would love to see some real-time Feickert software looking at channel separation to get some data around this, comparing for example, a bearing/gimbal-based arm to an undamped unipivot.

 

I have around 500-600 to spend but if there is something nicer, I can always put away more. There's no rush right now, just doing research.

 

Puma you do realize that VPI arms come supplied with damping fluid and are designed to be used dampened?

 

No, I didn't, Tom. My understanding was that the JMW9 and 10.5 (?) were undamped.

All the ones I've used had no damping in them.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I haven't owned the 9 but I have both the 10 and 10.5i and they have a damping trough.

 

That's right. I've also worked with other unipivot designs. The VPI does take longer to set-up as the azimuth is probably the hardest thing to get correct and it's something that you don't even have to deal with with a well made pivot arm and cartridge. don't even get me started on the "anti-skating and it's interaction.stability with it. The Nottingham Space arm or whatever was also a crappy arm IMO. The arm will never completely stabilize in the groove, even with damping fluid. The damping helps keep it from wandering around like a drunken sailor and from chattering to some degree but it still will sway a bit. Even the fellow that owns the table commented "Well, that rules out drinking before playing records..." in reference to cuing the shaky arm on an Lp.

Ortofon, Rega, and SME all offer really nice arms with proper bearings. No reason to suffer the indignity of a unipivot IMO.
-Bill

 

I have no problem with used at all, as long as it's been taken care of. I've searched Audiogon for some TT's, a lot of the good stuff goes quick so you need to be able to jump on it. The Rega looks pretty cool(the whole minimalistic thing) and the P1 has a decent price tag, I might spring for one of those.