Magneplanar MMG's - how much power do I really need?

I am assembling a budget stereo system and need some advice from forum members. I have decided on the Magneplanar MMG's, Rega P1 turntable, NAD PP-2 phono preamp, SVS SB-12 subwoofer, and the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C v2. CD player. What NAD integrated amp (I guess I'm asking just how much power do these speskers really require to sound good) would be good for this system in a fairly small listening room at reasonable sound levels? Thanks.

 

Not on the little baby magnepans....

100wpc would be plenty. Also, how big is your room
and how loud do you want to play them?

 

100WPC will do nicely for MMG, but more is better (as long as it is high quality).

For reference here is what works well at a minimum (tubes can be a bit less):

200WPC for 1.6

300WPC for 3.6

400WPC for 20.1

 

Thanks, I was looking at the NAD C372 (150 wpc, 340 wpc into 4 ohms) initially, but was wondering about the C352 (80 wpc, 185 wpc into 4 ohms) as a less expensive alternative. The NAD's are touted for their robust power supplies and ability to drive 4 ohm speakers such as the baby Maggies. I'm not looking for deafening sound levels at my age, my listening room is approximately 14 ft. by 11 ft. Also would using a powered sub reduce the power the amp needs to produce because the Maggies wouldn't be asked to transmit as much bass information?

 

I have electrostatics. Only way they sound good is tons of power. Otherwise, forget it.

400 isn't unreasonable in this case.

 

They're only 86 dB/watt sensitive. If you want good listening levels AND dynamic range preserved you need AT LEAST 400 wpc as Steve indicates, and probably more if you like to crank it up every once in a while. See this calculator which gives you ability to play with different parameters...if you want full dynamics on good acoustic recordings you'll want to specify at least 12-16 dB headroom in the calculations (less if all you listen to is compressed rock).

http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm

 

All of the above is certainly true if you crank it up often. As folks have said, it all depends on the size of your room, your hoped for SPLs, and your taste in music. Quality of the amps selected cannot be overstated however, otherwise forget it - with Magnepans at least.

 

Ben, have you read the December 2007 issue of TAS (on your newsstand now)? Jonathan Valin reviews both the MMG and the MG12, and uses the Parasound Halo A21 to power both speakers. He says: "One of the things Maggies do have issues with is power. You will need a good deal of it to drive them properly. An amp like the $2k 400Wpc (into 4 ohms) Parasound Halo A21 will do just fine."

I had a pair of SMGas, through which I loved listening, mostly to classical, for over ten years. I used a 65Wpc Kyocera receiver, which was what the dealer recommended. He told me at the time it didn't matter whether I had that Kyocera receiver, or their more powerful integrated amp, with 100Wpc (I think).

This may have been based on the fact that I never listen to music loud. If I raise the volume level above 25%, it means there's something weird about the record or CD. This was true even before I had tinnitus (full disclosure, this). I have supremely good hearing though, pre- and with tinnitus. It has been tested twice in the last eight years, including one year ago.

While I resent the idea that I'd have to spend $2000 to hear a $550 speaker properly, I can't help but wonder if I'd've liked the SMGas more if I'd had more power than that receiver had to offer. I subsequently hooked up a more powerful amp (150Wpc @ 4 ohms), but I'd changed the sources, too, so it was hard to know for sure. I didnt think CD sounded any different, but I was never able to know for sure. And I've always wondered.

Another factor: becoming used to a more revealing speaker in the meantime enabled me to listen for, and hear, things I hadn't heard before in the SMGas, hence more confusion about what new amplification might be revealing.

I'm very drawn towards Magnepan speakers, in part because of how cool they look, especially, in my case, in the off-white fabric and light oak trim. The light oak goes well with other mid-century furniture of mine.

The Halo amplifiers look great with the blonde Magnepan fabric/wood options, but still, $2000 to amplify a $550 speaker? There's relief, though, at least on the $$$ front. Halo has a less powerful, and yes, cheaper, option, the Halo A23 ($850).

Here are links to both.

The A23: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHA23
The A21: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHA21

And the Parasound Halo Balanced P3 Preamp:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHP3

If I were buying these today, I'd probably start with the A23 amp, hoping Jeff is more right in this issue than Steve or Jonathan. Because how things look also matters to me, I'd buy the preamp as well. But again, I listen at what must be remarkably low volume compared to the rest of the audiophile universe, given how loud every stereo dealer I've ever met starts off at.

 

Hi Ben,

I think you're going to enjoy those MMGs.
I've set up a bunch of systems for friends using these and the only person who didn't keep them ended up trading them for their larger sisters, the 1.6s, after about a year.

Maggies do drink power and I don't believe you can give them too much.
That said, with MMGs, an amp that can deliver a solid 100 wpc into 8 ohms and is comfortable with the Maggies' 4 ohm load will do fine. That last part about 4 ohms is important.

I'd also suggest listening to the speakers for a while before purchasing a sub. The Maggies are fast and finding a sub that will blend without being obviously sluggish is a challenge. You may just find you don't want a sub.

Now, the standard Maggie caveat:
If you are used to box speakers, the Maggies (any Maggies) just might amaze you right out of the box. However, these speakers, more than most I've heard, need a lot of music playing time to reveal their true magic.

Compared to how they will ultimately sound, out of the box they are thin (bass shy), a bit out of focus and a bit edgy in the treble. After a full two weeks worth of playing music, things will start to change, most noticeably, the bass will start to wake up. In my experience with a lot of Maggies, they will not show their full capabilities until they've had music playing through them for a full two months. In other words, they keep getting better. Then, at about two months, the "break in" (or whatever one chooses to call it) is complete.

To be clear, when I say it will take two weeks for the first real changes to be heard, I do not mean a couple of hours a day for 14 days. I mean two weeks worth of at least 8 hours a day music playing. If you listen for 4 hours a day, the time will double. What I do to break in a new pair is to put in a wide range CD (or even better, the "burn in" track from the Reference/XLO burn-in disk), place the player in continuous repeat and let it go all day. (This is easier to do with a dedicated music room where you can shut the door. The Reference/XLO track in particular, can drive you nuts after a while. My wife calls it "the mad scientist tone". If you hear it, you'll know why.)

Also, you don't mention cables. You may already have favorites. For what its worth, in the MMG systems I've set up for friends (more than a dozen to date), I've used Nordost Flatline speaker cables and their Black Knight interconnects.

Lastly, when setting up the MMGs, unless you are sitting very close to them, I've found they "focus" better if the small tilt mechanism on the back of the "feet" is set to keep the speakers more vertical -i.e. less tilted back.

And place them at least two feet from the wall behind them. Three is better. More is even better. They are light enough that they can be moved closer to the wall when you're not doing "serious" listening. As I always say for almost any speaker: Every foot from the wall adds $1000 to the sound. ;-}

Hope this helps.

Have fun!

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

P.S. For more information that might be of interest:
http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm
and
http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

 

No way. 100 watts is fine for the smaller Maggies. I power my 1.6s with an ARC VT-100 and it works fine.

 

I might add that I think amp design has a bit to do with it. Some amps I have tried do better driving a 4 ohm load than others.

 

As Steve says, power is really important, but these panels are so revealing that quality might be even more important (once you have the minimum watts recommended).

These speakers do not like any components upstream that are even mildly harsh. And like Barry says, they take forever to break in. But, when they do, watch out!

 

I think that's the answer - quality of power. I'm not having any trouble at all with my VT-100s and I think my 1.6s have the same sensitivity. Of course, the VT-100 is conservatively rated on the power front. Maybe current and ability to drive 4 ohm loads is important factor. I used to own a Counterpoint SA-100 hybrid amp and it did not get the job done on my 1.6s or prior IIIas.

As I stated in an earlier thread, the bigger boys need tons of juice. My friend is driving 20.1s with the largest McIntosh ss monoblocks. It sounds very good.

 

Lee, you might want to "borrow" your friend's monoblocks. But make sure you have some fun money in the bank first...

 

LOL. Assuming he will lend them out!

 

In the 1970s and early 80s I had a pair of Maggies (IIA's IIRC) that were rated at 86db efficiency, and I powered them with Bryston 3Bs (rated at 100 wpc into 8 ohms). The room was not large (probably roughly 10 X 18) and quite lively (tile over cement slab floor, hard walls and ceiling). The Bryston had a red LED on the front that would light when the amp went into clipping. During almost any serious rock listening session with the Maggies, the clipping indicator was lit on almost every dynamic peak.

 

Hi Hal,

The early Maggies were not the same as the Maggies of the '90s and beyond.
It would be interesting to try the same experiment with the modern versions.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Well, I still have the Bryston at my ski house. You bring the Maggies and we'll give it a go.

 

Hey, I'm assuming a lot!

 

Maggies love power. I'm using the 1.6's with a CJ 125 tube watt amp that is actually closer to a 140 rating. It still does not have the control necessary for the bottom end. I'm not familar with the MMG's so 100-150 may be enough but on the 1.6's unless you are using 200+ you will not get all the benefits of the speaker.

 

Sure!
I just have to "fold" them to fit into my Honda.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com