Magneplanar MMG's - how much power do I really need?

Hi TommyTunes,

I agree all the way.
That said, there are an awful lot of $10,000 and up speakers I've heard where I'd rather hear 1.6s with 100 watts than those other speakers with 1000. ;-}

Yes, I know: 1.6s with 1000 is better still.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I have the MMG's bigger brother the MG12s that I use with my McIntosh MC2105. That amp is rated at 105 WPC but I've been told it regularly measures more. that said, I thionk that while it is true I may be missing a great deal of the Maggies' potential it still sounds very nice to me. I am pretty sure that the MMGs with 100 watts would also sound fine [but not as fine as they could]. Sure, 400 watts would be great but it might be impractical in most real world situations.

In short, hook 'em up sit back and enjoy what you have and don't fret over what you may be missing.

Alan

 

While it has been mentioned earlier, Maggies need quality power. I once owned a pair of '99 Magnepan MGLR1 planars that for all intended purposes were nothing more than slightly bigger MMGs. I drove them with a Carver TFM-35x (350 WPC @ 4 ohms) and later a used McIntosh MC7200 (300 WPC @ 4 ohms; direct-coupled). With high quality pipe organ recordings played at over 90dB levels, I would max out the wattage from both amps during dynamic peaks at full tutti (and I had a DIY subwoofer with dual 8" drivers driven by two amps bridged to 500 watts each mono at the time that was anything but sluggish and very much needed to provide the lowest octave from my organ recordings).

Sure, if you listen to chamber music or jazz or a girl with a guitar at 80dB and lower in a small room, then maybe 100 to 200 watts and no subwoofer is all you'll need. But when Steve makes a 400 watt recommendation, I'd think twice and reconsider your amplification choices to include those high current amps well over 300 WPC...power in reserve when needed!

 

First of all, thanks to all of you for your replies. Jay F, I've been researching the MMGs and came across a reference to the TAS article you mentioned. I will definitely get that issue. Interesting enough, the same issue contains a review of the NAD C372 integrated amp I've been eyeing (boy it would have been great if the Maggies and C372 had been reviewed together in a system).
Barry, thanks so much for your input on the MMGs, I will certainly reference your posts when its set up time for my system. And like I said earlier, I will play my copy of your Close to the Edge to "christen" the Maggies!

Am I correct in my opinion that the NAD C372 integrated amp is sufficiently high enough in quality and power that it wouldn't limit the Maggies' potential?
Here is a link to the NAD for your convenience: http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C372-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier/specs

Thanks again for your time!

 

IMO judging from the C372's specs, you'd do the MMGs justice. Go for it!

 

Hi Ben if you listen at a reasonable volume the Nad C-352 will do a fine job of course more power does not hirt my cousin has the Nad c-372 with MG 12 and they sound fantastic i mysel have a Bow Technologies Wazoo XL wich is a 75 watts per channel integrated amp with 1.6QR and i have plenty of amp but this is a very good quality amp and i do not say this because i own one it's just that it is very good also expensive nothing good in life is free

 

Right on i also have 1.6QR's and i use a Bow Technologies Wazoo XL 75 watts per channel and for ( NORMAL ) people no problem what so ever but if you want disco volume you should look elsewere Magnepan is made for music lovers not noise makers my two cents

 

Thanks Panneauman, it seems that the C372 is the logical choice for me. I've tried to pick components that are highly regarded for their sound quality and at the same time are high-value buys. As Barry recommended, I'll hold off on a sub and see if I really need one. Thanks to all!

 

Would you all think a Threshold S/150 Series I (75 watts/channel 8 ohms) would be able to drive them effectively? The reason I ask is, there is a pair of SMGb's for sale in my area. Are the SMGb's similar to the MMG's. Thanks.

 

What I found interesting is that the $$$$$$$ of a powerful enough amp will far exceed the $$ of the speakers. Same with some of the cabling that has been recommended.

I used a Phase Linear 400 to power a set of old magnaplanars many years ago and found that at the volumes I played back my music it sounded just fine. Unfortunately in the 70s the adhesives that were used weren't all that great and my speakers developed a buzzing.

 

Ask Lee S about the right subwoofer for the Maggies

 

The answer to your question is a big big yes and the smg's are a little bit bigger than the mmg but still not a big speaker they where the smallest speaker in the Magnepan line before the mmg came out and Threshold is a very good amplifier if i where you i would match that amp with a tube preamp

 

Sorry to inform you if you need a subwoofer or subwoofers with your Magnepans then i think you have the wrong speaker Magnepans are made for normal listening and with the right equipment you do not need subwoofer ( s ) only my 2 cents i have been with panels for over 25 years never had a subwoofer or subwoofers with neither my Acoustat's or my Magnepan's but always had good electronics Classé DR3-VHC and Conrad Johnson and now a small Bow Technologies Wazoo XL subwoofers destroy all the qualitys of your panels that of course is MY opinion

 

Panneauman,

I'm not sure I fully agree. I have heard some good subs with Maggies and they do add a nice low end.

 

Yeah, musical sub(s) are necessary for a full range experience with Maggies (except for 20.1s - maybe).

Modern day Maggies can be plenty dynamic. Problem is you will need to spend twice as much as the speakers (retail) to get the big quality amp needed to achieve this. If you buy 3.6 speakers, sub and CJ 350 amp used you can get there for under 10K. a lot of money for sure, but the sound is very satisfying.

Steve, you are welcome to stop by and listen anytime!

 

A sub can compliment panels such as ML or Magnepan the trick is to run the speakers full range and just use the sub to fill in the lowest range. I had good luck with Rel subs. I use a Rel with my CLS's set at 30hz. However with my 1.6 I currently do not have a sub but may add one in the future.

 

Thanks for the reply - I purchased the SMGb's and sent them to Magnepan for a rebuild. Prior to shipping them to the factory, i used them with the Threshold and it definitely has plenty for the SMGb's - In fact in my listening room, the Threshold was able to drive them at a volume I wouldn't normally listen to - and it still had plenty left to give. The Threshold does double its power at 4 ohms and then again at (I think I remember this) 2 ohms. The sound stage of this set-up was very wide (way beyond the outsides of the maggies) and deep.

For fun, I ordered an "Aric Audio 3.5" tube preamp that Aric sells on Ebay. The little preamp sounds great. It came with JJ Tesla 12au7's and I am currently running a matched pair of RCA Clear Tops. I can run the Aric as either a stand alone preamp or as a tube buffer through the tape monitor jacks of my Threshold Fet 2 preamp. Would running the Aric as a buffer yield anything different (better or worse) than using it as a stand alone preamp?

I haven't had a chance to try the Aric with the SMGb's as they are not yet back from the factory. Thanks for you reply. I am now a Maggie convert.

 

That Threshold Amp is a great match for those speakers!!

 

Thanks - I've used that amp with a number of speakers over the years and it has always excelled. My Dad bought it for me in 1983 along with a Threshold FET 2, a set of Allison 1's and a Sony CDP-70 (Looking back at that player, I don't know how CD's survived - digital hell). I can't wait to hear the Magnepans with the little tube preamp.

 

Hi ben,

If I were you, I would take the advice of both DrJ and Steve.

Keep in mind that with all amps, distortion starts to creep in when they reach 60% of their rated power. Therefore, an amp rated a 400 wpc, will only deliver 240 watts of "clean" power. Have you ever seen anyone crank their amp up to full volume and leave it there?....I sure haven't!

IMHO, you are currently facing the most critical step in building your system.....matching the power output of your amp to the the sensitivity rating of your speakers. If this is not done properly, your system will always be mediocre at best.

REMEMBER:

- If your amp has too much power for the speakers, It will always be performing well below it's design specifications...this is not good. Ideally, you want your amp to be putting out between 40-50% of it's rated power. This is the "sweet spot" that is often mentioned by amplifier technicians.

- On the other hand, If your amp has too little power for the speakers, you will frequently experience distortion and clipping and will not have sufficient headroom to be able to experience the full dynamic range of most recordings.

Good Luck!

HG

 

Where do you get these crazy ideas from? Every amplifier made since the late 70's has their distortion spec measured at FULL power. If you have a 150 watt per channel amplifier, it will put out 150 watts at whatever its rated distortion spec is and probably a little bit more, because most amplifiers have at least a DB or two worth of headroom built in.

SO saying that a 250 watt amplifier will only put out 150 watts of clean power is completely wrong and has NO basis in science, engineering, or reality.

The more power you have to a point, the better. Nothing will be wrong with your system if you don't "use all the power
is is capable of" and most amplifiers if operated around 30% power (at least solid state ones) will generate a ton of heat.

That's why the FTC makes a burn in at 1/3 power for a set period of time a requirement before power measurments are
done.

 

First, you asked where I get my crazy ideas from...well, I guess I get them from my extensive experience collecting, restoring, modifying and repairing tube amplifiers, and, from building large box, 3 way speakers for myself and my family.

Second, may I suggest that you read this article in it's intirety:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/power.html

I'm sure you can find many others on this subject which are even better, but, this one is in lay terms, and therefore quite easy to understand.

However, if you don't want to take the time to read the entire article, you might want to at least read the last two paragraphs:

"And what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most of our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom. It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud.""

"The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels."

Regards,

HG

 

This completely contradicts what you said in your last post. You said that amplifiers distortion starts to creep in at 60% of their rated power. Which is wrong.

Your second underlined comment also contradicts what you said earlier.

It's not distortion that sounds loud, it's distortion that sounds uncomfortable to the ear. A higher powered amplifier with a speaker capable of handling more power will generate a higher SPL, which your ear does interpret as loudness, especially at higher levels.

Let's have a little more facts instead of making it up as we go....

Regards

 

Now I am rethinking....

I am about to pick up a set of MMG's this weekend. I ordered an Outlaw RR2150 to power them since I am short on $$ and it was recommended to me by a number of people. Now reading about the 400 watts and a small nuclear reactor that is required to power these bad boys, I am worried that they won't be getting enough power. Please check out that link and tell me what you think.....it has the specs on it and I am a spec retard.

Thanks!!!