Second Genesis 2007 remasters (1983-1998 box): A Visible Touch

Got my Genesis 1983-1998 Box Set today (5 Hybrid SACDs + 5 DVDs). Too early to make any judgments yet. I am still listening.
One thing I can say already now, they are much-much louder than the original CD releases, that's for sure (I don't own / haven't heard the first SACD remasters box, so I can't tell you how it compares to the previous one).
Anyway, when I put on the "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" track I had to quickly run up to my stereo and rapidly turn the volume down because the windows pains and the tableware in the glass cabinets started to rattle; was not quite prepared for that.
Hear and judge for yourself. I made two sound samples, each consisting of two halves: original CD sound vs. 2007 remaster sound. They are the tracks "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Invisible Touch" from the 1986 album.
Also quickly made a waveform picture of the original "Invisible Touch" CD, upper pic, vs. 2007 Remaster (from the CD layer), lower pic. Have not heard the SACD layer and 5.1 mixes yet. Will post more info later.

Here are the sound samples:
http://rapidshare.com/files/59524483/TonightTonightTonight_cmp.wav (14 MB)
http://rapidshare.com/files/59525903/InvisibleTouch_cmp.wav (17 MB)

Form your own opinion.

Best regards,
SolarWind

 

Which one is which again?






Just kidding.

 

I never bothered looking at waveforms of the first box, but it sounded like it would look like this too. Does the new box have tweeter-frying treble levels too?

 

Played Invisible Touch. Thanks for that.

Again, any subtlety has vanished. Everything is all up front. And again, and may I ask some of our pros here....the echo sounds wrong. Different timing and sound.

 

Jeez....LOL.
Looks like it's just as bad as the last set. Doesn't bode well for the Gabriel era set, unfortunately.

 

Mother of God! Just played Tonight Tonight Tonight. Yowza! The "depth" you hear on the original has been squashed away. All faders on 10!

Thanks for the samples.

 

Just listened to that sample again, and yep, the echo on the remix/remaster is totally screwy. Nothing like the original. There's a rhythm to the original echo, and the new one is almost like slapback.

 

Been listening a bit more to the new remasters. Particulary to the 1983 self-titled album, "Genesis". Overall, the 2007 remixes are much more "closed-in" and the mix has got definitely much more "power" to it and much less air, but the thing that kind of annoys me more is that the Phil's vocal does not sound "right" (totally agree with dave64). Not the way I used to know it.

Take another example, "Home By The Sea" (illustrates the vocal differences):
http://rapidshare.com/files/59596827/HomeByTheSea_cmp.wav (15 MB)

 

I haven't gotten a chance to download these yet, but if the vocal doesn't sound "right", it's probably something to do with the effects used on the voice. In 83/86 Phil was constantly over-saturating his voice with delay effects; these are somewhat tricky to replicate precisely.

I asked Nick Davis about this once at the Genesis forum and he said the guys would use an AMS delay unit. It starts with an artifical "doubling" effect (delaying the original voice a few miliseconds and slightly detuning the pitch of the effect). On the original IT, it sounds like the vocal was first "doubled" and then that signal was put through an echo and some reverb. On the Video Collection many of the vocals from those albums were remixed with a lot less of these effects (a "dryer" vocal, if you will).

Let's see if I'm right when I can actually hear these.

 

I'll definitely wait for the US release of these. No point on spending big money for over-saturated SACD's.

 

I just checked the SACD layers on two albums briefly. SACD stero does sound slightly better in terms of having more bit-depth/SNR (no "dither" noise), logically. Other than that, it comes across just as "loud"/compressed as the red book layer.

The fact that the total running time of multi-channel SACD layer = 2 ch SACD layer = red book layer

Genesis (1983) - 46:19 (SACD multi/2ch = red book)
Invisible Touch (1986) - 46:14 (SACD multi/2ch = red book)

kind of "gives away" that no dedicated mixes for stereo CD versions were created and the 2 ch CD version is likely a downmix of the multi-channel SACD mix (=2 ch SACD mix). Quick A/B comparing multi SACD layer vs. 2 ch SACD layer on the headphones says chances are that it could be so.

 

According to posters on a german DVD forum, there is a defect on the DVD of "Invisible touch". At 25:55 Min (end of "Anything She Does") on the DD 5.1 track, the right front channel goes mute until the end of the disc. The DTS track on the DVD and the SACD multichannel layer are ok.

http://forum.cinefacts.de/showthread.php?t=181255

 

I saw a post on the official forum about that too. I wonder if they'll fix it for the Rhino release.

 

This whole Genesis SACD thing has been one of the biggest disspointments for me (and I am sure others). I was shot so high when I heard they were comming out then slammed to the ground when they did come out.

 

Yeah, I can confirm that. At 25:53 on my DVD. Only the Dolby Digital Audio track, Right Channnel, is screwed. It's on "the other", video DVD disc, though. Luckily, the audio SACD / CD hybrid disc is not affected. A severe production fault, nevertheless. They should have caught that before sending the set to the pressing facilty!

There you have it. The mix producers/engineers don't even hear to their final mixes these days anymore. They just push the "convert to AC3" button and off it goes to the shops. It's really sad!

 

The echo is really different.

 

This absolutley freaking disgusting.

Being a mixing engineer myslef, I can tell you that those delays are mathematicly wrong. Too hollow and too much of a slap back. Thing is, the slap doesn't even sound in time. Sound slike something any 14 year old could mix in their bedroom.

This set (along with 1st one) is just a pure cash grab and sonicly is pure garbage IMO. The only worthwhile things are the 5.1 SACD mix (still a bit too shrill) and the bonus video content - and even that is pushing it.

They should have just hired Hugh & David to remix the albums THEY worked on for 5.1 and LEAVE THE DAM STEREO MIXES alone.

I am very annoyed by this and I hope N.D. has trouble sleeping at night. Or maybe he just did it for the cash? Sometimes - I just hate this industry.

 

Ooh, I've made a new friend.

 

D'oh,isnt that what rock n' roll supposed to do? Rattle your windows and glass cabinets?! Bring it on,baby!

 

Sure it's great if you a replaying Slayer or Queens of the Stone Age or NiN..

BUT Genesis? Genesis should not rattle your windows, CONSTANTLY.

As well - just compare the mixes from Invisible Touch (original & remix) that makes me want to puke

I am soooo angry about this. I would have thought that for such a huge band they would have done this right.

First the Doors. Now this. Whats next? Remixing Pink Floyd to sound like a**? How about remixing all the Beatles mono albums into faux 5.1? YES DO IT PLEASE! AND WITH 42dB of triple SSL Compression running at a 500:1 ratio, IN PARALLEL and than run through an old Yamaha SPX reverb unit set to a wrong delay. PLEASE! Take my money, you money grubbing recording company slackers!

ARGH!

When will the "big-wigs" who we feed, clothe, support & put roofs over their heads, relaize that WE the consumers are their paycheck NOT the artists? We really should just all take a stand and not by ANY major label release from ANYONE.

O wait...that's already happening...

 

More destruction of Hugh Padgham's otherwise superb production. Count me out on this purchase. My ears are still recovering from the first gorgeous offering of re-issues.

 

I for one can't wait for these. I'm chomping at the bit to hear Calling All Stations in 5.1 and also to see the bonus stuff on that DVD. The stereo remixes are worthless to me because they're remixes. I won't even bother with them. Bring on the 5.1.

 

Just listened to Home By The Sea. Wow. No fidelity to the original mix at all. Drum sounds are different. The 'verb on the vocal is different, way, way different--and in a worse way. Not that cool processed delay thing Phil had going, but a really basic tape slapback echo. Phil's distinctive vocals are . . . less distinctive. It's not the way I remember the song, and I have no desire to listen to a new incarnation. It's not that the slapback was poorly done, it's just that a major part of the sound of the song has been removed. Not good.

I was going to buy this box, and the last one. I didn't think the remix of Illegal Alien on the Platinum Collection was that bad--it wasn't really any different than the original, except the compression was jacked to 11.

Now that I've heard samples, I think I'll pass.

 

I've heard some of the 5.1 and it ain't bad, but it ain't great either.

It just sours me. The 1st box had "alright" mixing ideas, just wrong technical choices. I DID like SOME of the previous remixes, but the SOUND is horrible.

This set, my worst fears came true, everything is awful. bloody awful.

If the Gabriel set has all it's dynamics destroyed and it's a giant synth fest (I'm looking at you Tony!) than I just may have to start writing some hate mail.

LOL

calling Jamie T. - have you chimed in on this set yet?