Vintage Tannoy Lancaster speakers - Which amp?*

Dear members,

I recently have purchased a pair of Tannoy Lancaster 15" Dual-Concentric Gold speakers from the mid 60s for my home system. Unfortunately my amp does not harmonize too well with the big cabinets. I suspect that the reason is a lack of control. The sound is dull and I completely miss the dynamic character which was typical for the Tannoy speakers I experienced before .

Since even Steve is using these speakers for his home system I would like to give them one more chance. So I am now looking for a power amp or integrated amp that fits better. Have you enthusiasts out there any suggestions where to start?

Regards
Martin

 

Look out for classic brit monobloc valve amps of the 60/70's.

Quad II's

Radford MA25's

Leak TL25's

These 20 watters will sing through the Tannoys and still produce adequate levels.

Quad 50 ss amps were used by Decca for their Tannoys

These monoblocs on always on the Bay.

Roger IMHO

 

Q

Hi,

My son has a pair of Tannoy 15" Dual Concentric Golds in Lancaster Cabinets. We have replaced all capacitors in the crossovers and have autitioned them in both the ported and sealed configuration. The results have been underwhelming.

Based on the Vas (350 liters), the total Qt (.2) and the free air resonance (26 Hz), most modern box calculators recommend that the 15" Gold woofer be placed in a sealed box of 1.1 cubic feet, or, a ported box of 1.8 cubic feet. As you probably know, the original Lancaster cabinets are approximately 5.1 cubic feet!!!

We have not reboxed them yet, but our experience with homebuilts and other vintage speakers tells us that smaller (thats right, "SMALLER") boxes would improve their sound significantly....especially their transient response.

We are now deciding if the effort is worth it, or, if he should sell them and recover his investment.

We have driven them with a Citation II, MC 30's and MC 60's. None of these amps have made any apreciable improvement in their sound.

HG

 

Are your driver surrounds in good order?

A dual concentric driver generates most transient energy from the hf horn

Are your energy and roll off controls in good shape?

Cab size can be altered for higher Q, but why?

The magic of the DC design is in its voice, ie the mid band speed.

This with valve amplification is the nub of the Tannoy 60's sound

Roger IMHO

 

Hi Roger,

- Surrounds are in great shape.

- Don't see why the woofer in a dual concentric driver would perform any differently in a hf horn than a single woofer.

- The roll off controls are in great shape. We initially used them but later by passed them and installed L-pads on all four drivers. As you know, the left and right drivers in most vintage speakers must be balanced to produce identical outputs for a given volume setting. The Tannoys proved to be no exception.

- For the flattest response curve and most extended low frequency response, modern speaker theory favors a system Q of .7. My speaker building experience supports this theory.

- IMHO, When compared to well designed modern three way speakers, the Tannoys are lacking in transient response, tightness of bass and the ability to separately balance the mids and highs to personal taste.

HG

 

I have not posted on this forum before (hi everybody) but reading your post I felt that perhaps my experience could be of some use to you, as I've been in the same boat. I have several Tannoy speakers, including a pair of 15" Golds in rectangular GRF enclosures. My experience mostly coincides with the great advice you already received in posts above; I'll just add some specifics of my Tannoy journey

With the exception of a vintage 50W Class A Accuphase amp, which not only had fantastic grip on the drivers but also resulted in a great tone, I found that solid state amps I tried with the Golds were not to my liking. I tried Krell, different McIntosh units -- old and new, autoformer and direct-coupled, tried several chip amps of varying design and power rating, etc. I did not try the Quads (50 or 50/E) that are mentioned above but heard they were a very good match for the Golds and HPDs also.

With tubes it was a different story. I've seen people drive these speakers with a SE 300B or a 2A3. I tried it, as I have such an amp in my other system. I personally found the results unsatisfying as far as grip goes, i.e. the bass was uncontrolled, mushy, and thus distracting. Push-pull designs rated at 15-40W/ch worked MUCH better IMO. I had a chance to hear MC30s, a custom pair of 6L6 monos, all my vintage Scotts and Dynacos, and, most recently, Manley Mahi monos. The Mahis were absolute killer. The funny thing is that my Scott 299A, albeit completely rebuilt with good parts, is not that far behind; it's good enough for me to get completely immersed in music, and wonder after the listening session if I need all my other gear (ahem)... Yes, it does not give as spacious a presentation, perhaps is not as detailed, etc. -- whatever! -- the point is that the combination also provides that edge-of-the seat emotional involvement in music, and is nothing near dull or lacking control .

I am not sure if there is any pattern to it, but of all this, EL84 push-pull amps were the absolute magic to me tonally and had best control over these 15" drivers. It's certainly not the power rating: the Dynaco's, modified and not, while higher rated, could not produce any bass control to speak of. Probably not the tube itself either, but I did hear from several other Tannoy Gold users a preference for the EL84/6BQ5 push-pull amps as well. That said, obviously a lot of folks have great success with McIntosh tube units to drive their Golds. I liked the MC30s on my Tannoys very much, too...

I have also experimented with crossover and wiring modifications and found that to make a great difference; changing to a thicker gauge copper wiring all the way from the amp to crossover to the speaker had a significant effect on bass and control. Crossover mods are a bit of a controversy (as in "if you modify them, they are not Tannoys anymore") and are thus a personal thing but the wiring upgrade I'd recommend highly; it does not take much to do, and is easily reversible. Mine are wired with Kimber 4PR (14awg aggregate) all the way through. I am not advocating getting into funky cables at all; it could be zip cord of similar thickness with similar results -- I don't know -- just getting the right gauge for your amp/speaker combination.

I'd mention something else that could be affecting things from my experience: system synergy further up the chain. By system synergy in this case I mean a good match between your preamp and the power amp (if you are auditioning power amps, with integrateds you will not have this issue), i.e. make sure there is no impedance mismatch between your preamplifier and the amp that could account for sonic effects you are describing -- dullness and lack of control; just to get that out of the way...

I'd try to get a good match with an amp/preamp first and see if you like the speakers more (I bet you will) but maybe in the future you'd also want to mess with the enclosures to reduce their resonances by introducing extra bracing and/or damping... Speaker positioning is also another obvious thing but in my experience I found my big Tannoys not too fussy about placement.

There's a great deal of information on all things Tannoy here.

Hope this is of some help! One thing's for sure: once you stumble on a combination of things that wroks well, you'll fall in love with those speakers!

D

 

You might want to look into borrowing a Dynaco ST-35 amp if you like the EL-84 sound. It's pretty uncommon compared to the ST-70/MK II and III/MK IV Dyna amps with much higher power ratings, but seems to be well liked by tube amp connoiseurs.

 

Thank you for the recommendation! I've heard good things about it too but never came across one specifically.

 

I t warms my heart that these Tannoys are still the object of obsession.

Phase coherence is the the central tennant of the Dual Concentric design

Modern 3 ways sound different of course , but the Tannoy voice is undisputed

I don't think they should be modded

Cabs can be improved (infinite baffle best )

But you either like Tannoy +Valves or you don't

And if if you must go ss, go the Decca way.

Roger IMHO

 

Dear all,

thank you for the overwhelming response. It is great to see how many people out there have already tested my speakers (or the likes) in numerous constellations and share their experience. Thank you all.

Since this is the advice of the vast majority I will go valve next. I think I will first replace the power amp. An affordable solution seems the Quad II monos and the Leak 20. Of course, further suggestions are still welcome.

@marushka/D:
It seems that you tried out very much and I could get much profit from that. Unfortunately, as a beginner some things are Greek to me:
SE 300B or 2A3 -> Are these names of amp models?
Push-pull designs rated at 15-40W/ch worked MUCH better IMO.
-> Which amps are push-pull designs?
EL84 push-pull amps were the absolute magic to me tonally and had best control over these 15" drivers.
... but I did hear from several other Tannoy Gold users a preference for the EL84/6BQ5 push-pull amps as well.
-> Which amps are do you mean?

I think the wiring was replaced and a coning was done as well. The cabinets received a terminal for the banana plugs.

I know, I know ... Some say that you must not do this to an old lady, this is not authentic etc. but I am not too puristic. To me these smaller modifications make sense.

I will see if the preamp fits after replacement of the power amp. Else I will continue there. I will keep you updated after purchase.

Regards
Martin

 

My apologies; let me clarify what I meant

300B and 2A3 are valve designations. I meant to say that some people use valve amps of single-ended design (as opposed to, say, a push-pull design, a different amplifier topology) with power output of some 2 to 8 watts per channel, which to me did not work all that well with Tannoys -- even with the Reds when I had them. There was nice tone but not enough control and that fullness that Tannoys generate so well was not there...

Again, the EL-84 is a valve nomenclature (European; American equivalent is designated 6BQ5, and Russian 6П14П). I was saying that to my taste, valve amplifiers of push-pull design employing this tube work very well with Tannoy Golds, Reds, and HPDs. Specific examples I mentioned are Scott 299A and Manley Mahi.

If you care to try vintage EL84 amps, these are some of the very popular ones:

Pilot SA-232
Leak Stereo 20
Dynaco ST-35
Eico HF-86
Eico HF-81 (integrated)
Scott 299 and 222 series, of these I'd recommend either the 222C or 299A the highest.

That said, these, as is often the case with vintage gear, often need restoration and may not show their complete potential until a complete rebuild. Good thing is that these are not parтicularly difficult to service. The HF-86 Eico, for example, has so little parts that it's really an easy task accessible to anyone who can solder a little bit. Alternatively, you may come across an already rebuilt unit -- it's often a great way to go if you purchase from someone reputable.

Hope this helps,
Dmitri

 

I don't like changing Tannoy cabs

I love the 50/60's utilitarian look

The proper cabs were Lockwoods- Formica finish !!

Just plug up those ports with dense foam for IB effect

60's Amps are still plentifull

There must be Grundigs and Telefunkens that fit the bill ,in Cologne ,Martin.

Roger

 

I have 15" Tannoy Concentric Golds from around 1969, in great shape. They have new caps in the crossovers to replace the old out of spec ones, and the useless treble energy and roll-off knobs have been bypassed (hard wired to the neutral positions).

I like them for what they are - grand old boys of audio, and it's pretty remarkable that they still put in a respectable performance all these years later - plus I love opening that RECORDING THE BEATLES book and seeing basically my speakers in the studio on some pages! - but (and I say this respectfully to the other Tannoy enthusiasts here), after living with them for almost a year as my main speakers, in my honest opinion they are nowhere near as dynamic and fast as a good modern 3-way speaker and I'll be relegating them to second string soon as a result. And this is coming from a guy who loves vintage gear - my vintage tube power amps I will take to my grave. I run MC60s and a Citation II alternating as my main amps, day in day out, and have MC30s I take our for the occasional spin.

Beyond the issues above, I find the Tannoy HF drivers provide a rather thin and non-involving midrange sound - the biggest disappointment for me - even with tube amps to the warm and tubey side like my MC30s and 60s (the latter with original Genelex KT88s and Mullards in the 12AU7 position), plus the HF drivers create a rather edgy/metallic, not very natural sounding high end - sort of "hi fi" (not in a good way) sound. Voices sound quite good - it sounds to me like these drivers were optimized for voice - but trumpets and pianos, and cymbals, for example, sound brittle and thin, not very realistic, in my opinion.

Bass is quite good, though my prior 1960 infinite baffle Bozak B302-A Urbans had even better bass in my opinion (more subtle/detailed sound) and a good modern 3-way speaker gives as much bass but with much tighter/better control.

It's asking an awful lot of a driver to reproduce all the sounds from 1000 Hz up which is what the HF drivers on the Tannoys do. It's a remarkable feat of engineering they pulled off, but, to my ears, still creates major compromises in the midrange and high end that you don't have to accept with a good modern 3 way design.

And I personally don't find that the imaging is any better for the 2-way concentric approach - I mean, it's fine, and quite outstanding for a vintage speaker (blows away the Bozaks in this aspect), but not anything to write home about by modern standards.

The only other thing I want to try, though I doubt it will dramatically change any of these issues, is putting the 15" Golds in smaller, sealed boxes. I know the conventional wisdom on some of the Tannoy web sites is "bigger is better" but I think that's nonsense personally - if they're sluggish now I can't imagine how putting them in a huge box is going to help that any. I have them in original ported Lancaster enclosures, but as Hegeman's Ghost indicates above that is kind of a screwy enclosure for them when you actually calculate optimal box size based on Thiele-Small parameters of the LF driver - based on those numbers, a relatively small sealed box ought to work well (and be more convenient for my small listening room). Should be just the ticket to tighten up the bass transients.

Anyway - lest I give the wrong impression - I am quite glad I have owned them, they're a kick. But remember also that 15" Concentric Golds cost an arm and a leg these days (expect to pay $2000-3000 for a pair in great condition, unless you get lucky like Steve did and find them in a thrift shop for $100 or something!). If you have that kind of cash, they may be worth it to you for the investment alone and for the fun of owning a piece of history. On the other hand, if you're looking for speakers for your main system and you're not flush with cash, I'd think long and hard...

 

Midband with Quad II's driving my Tannoys is excellent

Voice and saxophone never sounded better

My Meridian DSP6000's of course sound smoother louder and more detailed

The Tannoys are rougher but sound like real instruments

I love both

Spendor BC1's driven by Radford Monoblocs, wonderfull midrange at modest levels.

Another mistress.....

Roger IMHO

 

I think owning vintage kit is like vintage motors

Its great that decades old stuff is still surprisingly good

Of course when it was new it was horrible expensive

New minimonitors made in Indonesia are more accurate

And cheap as chips

But seeing those Tannoys in Abbey Rd No 2 studio and Deccas control
rooms is a great feeling and a definite connection to the golden age....

If they are inacurate how come the tracks they monitored sound so good now???

Roger IMHO

 

The Dynaco ST70 can be an incredible amplifier, but the power supply isn't up to the task, hence the lack of grip. Everybody knows those A470 output transformers are absolutely killer, but the power supply got the cost-cutting shaft. Unfortunately, virtually all of the mods only address the driver board (which can certainly improve too). Get a bigger transformer and more capacitance for that power supply and you'll hear deeeep, nicely-controlled low frequencies with all that EL34 magic intact. Yum.

I know some folks are against modding these, and I'm in agreement where the higher end McIntosh and Marantz components are concerned, but the Dynacos were really short-changed in an effort to keep the cost down. It's a shame to let those amazing output transformers languish in that stock amplifier. Just my opinion...

 

Just to clarify, when I say I personally prefer modern 3 way speakers, it's not about harsh "accuracy," which often means boring/uninvolving to me. I'm not one of "those" guys.

To me it's about being pulled into the music to the point that "speakers" vanish and music takes over - a function of greater dynamics, transients, and what I feel is a more natural midrange and high end sound with a well designed modern 3-way speaker.

As much as I think the Tannoys are marvelous in many ways, and as much as I agree with Gary that they do resolve a tremendous amount of detail and have good visceral impact, I am still always very conscious that I'm listening to music through speakers (and vintage ones at that), due to what I feel are some inherent limitations in the design (or, possibly, simple aging of the drivers). So - the Tannoys have a "rose colored glasses" feel for me for me, though that's very fine/fun when in the mood.

They nonetheless set a very high standard for comparison for speakers of any vintage - to my ears, there are a whole lot of modern speakers (many at higher price points) that can't hold a candle to them in terms of enjoyment and musicality, which is tremendous given they are now close to 40 years old!!! Only a very solidly designed, classic 3-way speaker can eclipse them to my ears, not just any old speaker for sure.

Hope that clarifies and hope none of this seems like raining on anyone's parade. Hey I kicked in my $3K to have my pair of Tannoys shipped in crates from the UK, fighting some pretty unbelievable DHL and customs hassles for weeks to get them here - so clearly I'm an enthusiast! Just like to kick in my own balanced opinions (which is what they are of course - your mileage may vary!) since a lot of folks won't have the coin to pick them up just for occasional listening and may be considering them as main speakers.

 

Tannoys do go for BIG money now

That clouds the issue a bit for me

I have owned Ardens (Gold drivers) £100 from a studio close out

Berkeleys (ex BBC) £80, poor cosmetically

A quad set of Berkeleys for £300 in perfect order including their original packing....

So I have been lucky in love

Recently a 12" mono corner cab with a generic 50's Tannoy driver went for
£900 on the Bay

That was crazy

But love is blind, so make up your mind, I have to go.

RogerIMHO

 

If my memory serves me right, the Tannoy Golds have a sensitivity rating of around 95 dB. Therefore, any amp rated at 25 watts per channel should give good results with these speakers.

My point is this....if your current amp meets this power criterion, and, as you indicated in your initial posting, the Tannoy's still sound dull and lacking in the dynamic character, I doubt very much whether a different amp, will solve the problem.

It is true that some amps will give tighter bass and add a distinctive coloration to the sound, but most will not remove the "dull" sound or improve the "dynamic character" which you find lacking. Changing, or improving these characteristics is more a function of speaker driver parameters and box dimensions.

I have been down this road many times in the past. IMHO, if I were you, I would look for a new pair of speakers rather than a new amp.

HG