Speaker Cable Direction?

seems a joke but this is the true.

 

careful - they may blow a fuse (we are well off the thread)

 

Hi Kevin,

As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not as important as whether or not you hear a difference when direction is changed. If you do, it doesn't matter what anyone else says. If you don't, it doesn't matter what anyone else says.

***

Looking at some of the posts here and at some of the links contained within them, it seems strange that many folks who believe they take a "scientific" approach, to this and any other subject in audio, seem to lose the science completely when they translate their own experience ("I listened and I don't hear it") to Universal Truth ("It is impossible for anyone to hear"). The latter being quite an unscientific, not to mention illogical conclusion based on a total absence of evidence regarding the rest of the listening population.

If one has tried it and not heard a difference, the scientifically and logically defensible argument would be the first one. But many such folks would then be taking a risk they'd apparently prefer not to take. ("What if it turns out there are lots of other folks who hear it and what if it turns out in time, someone offers a very plausible explanation?")

The same thing happened in the early '80s when some folks heard lots of problems with the so-called "perfect" sound of CD. The folks touting the format (based at the time, primarily on frequency response measurements) didn't hear any problems and said things like the others were "just used to the 'colorations' of vinyl". Then, a few years later, when those folks started reading about "jitter" (one of a whole collection of issues with digital and with CD in particular), they started being critical of those "perfect" players they were touting not so long before.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Some speaker cables seem (to me) to have a very noticable change in sound when the direction is changed, and others less so.

 

http://www.monstercable.com/faqs/#18
The monster says...

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/145091.aspx

 

I follow the indicated directionality of my cables and wires, unless I want to hear "Paul is dead" messages in Beatles CDs, in which case I reverse them.

 

To my mind, that's a very dangerous line of thought, especially when you look at the dollar values involved with some of these pieces of equipment.

If I asked you what you thought of my ability to jump 500 metres into the air and land safely, what would your reaction be? If your ******** detector is working in the same manner as mine, you'd likely respond that it's impossible (or at best, massively unlikely) for a human to be able to jump that high. You would make a generalization to the entire population based on sound scientific reasoning about the biochemical energy stored in human muscles and the pull of the Earth's gravity.

It's the same line of reasoning that forces me to reject theories about the directionality of speaker wire: all the science that I am aware of regarding the conductivity of electrical current through a properly extruded length of copper or silver wire says that resistance will be equal in both directions. Given that the waveform which your speakers change from electrical impulses to mechanical energy goes rapidly from positive to negative, it's utterly impossible for the wire to have a preferred direction. If it did, your speakers simply wouldn't function.

Here's another thought: let's allow for the moment that speaker wire does have directionality, and it conducts differently in one direction than it does in the other. When hooked up the 'wrong' way, various reports have said that highs become 'harsh' and 'edgy'. I would like to ask you what could be causing this effect. Obviously the resistance of the wire in one direction is changing the sound, so when the waveform goes positive, the electrons are not allowed to move in a completely free manner, thus 'smearing' the signal. When it goes negative, the electrons are presumably freer than they were before.

And here's the problem with that line of thinking: reversing the cable to the 'correct' direction simply shifts the problem from positive to negative. Now, instead of encountering problems when your speaker cone is being pushed out, it's encountering those same problems when the speaker cone is being pulled back in.

How does this result in an improvement in sound quality? According to my logic it should sound virtually identical, unless your ears are so good that you can detect the difference between positive and negative air pressure in vibrations up to 20,000 Hertz.

The nature of the electron flow in alternating current is such that speaker cable cannot have a direction. It's as unlikely as you successfully jumping 500 metres off the ground under your own power.

Jitter is a complex phenomenon which is a product of a sophisticated piece of technology. Wire is wire. It relies on some very basic scientific principles, which have been well and truly understood for a long time now, and are quite adequately explained (for audio purposes) by classical physics.

Yes, there are still problems and unresolved issues at the quantum level, but if you're telling me that you can hear quantum vacuum fluctuations, I suggest you get in touch with the people at CERN. They have a job for you.

 

wouldn't you be curious to hear what these cables will give you?

the only downside is you can't use them with normal cables, 'coz you know... if they touch each other, boom!

 

Hi Kevin,

I would be more inclined to say "I doubt it" and would express my curiosity to see this. ("Unlikely" and "impossible" are *very* different things.) I have seen some humans do some things I might have considered either "unlikely" or even perhaps "impossible" - before seeing the thing done.

Some of the keys in this are "all the science that I am aware of..." "...conductivity"... and "...resistance...". (I say, forget the "utterly impossible".)

Why would you make the assumption that a proper explanation for this necessarily involves knowledge you already have or that it would be confined to some measure of conductivity or resistance?
Why would you not consider a hundred other characteristics of a cable (e.g. capacitance in the dielectric, crystalline structure of the metal, etc. etc.)?

"Obviously"? Again, you are seeing the physical aspects in terms you are familiar with. I don't know that a measurable difference in resistance would be necessary and further would in fact consider this "unlikely". (;-})

***
I won't try to argue the point with you because I don't believe it would serve a purpose.

I would ask if you hear differences between cables?
(I've never heard two that sound the same.)

And if you hear a difference between when a cable is brand new and after it has been playing music for ~50 hours.

Unless you can answer yes to both, I would not bet you would hear the difference in reversing the direction of a cable.

By the way, unless we're talking about having the shield connected at only one end, I don't believe a cable is directional when it is brand new. In my experience however, once the cable has been burned in, reversing its direction will - to my ears, at least - result in an appreciable degradation of the sonics.

Just my perspective.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

The only question I'm asking is "How?"

When you put a signal through a length of speaker wire, the electrons in it are moving back and forth. They vibrate. They flow in each direction at different points in time.

That's why I'm saying it's impossible for the direction of speaker wire to make a difference.

If the current was only flowing in one direction through the wire, as in the case of direct current, then you might be able to argue that the direction makes a difference. (I would still strongly contest that assertion, however.) But the current is flowing in BOTH DIRECTIONS. The electrons go forwards through the wire, then they come back. Flipping the wire around doesn't change anything! Electrons are still flowing both directions through it, and both directions are equally critical to the accurate reproduction of sound at the speaker.

The phenomenon you're describing is impossible. It's ridiculous. It flies in the face of everything I've ever learned about electrical engineering, and it denies the very principle, the fundamental law of physics, that every piece of electrical equipment on earth is based on.

If what you're saying is true, your stereo would not function.

 

Hi Kevin,

The questions are: Do you hear differences between cables? and in a single cable between the time it is new and when it has played music for ~50 hours?

Again, you are trying to fit this into the understanding you already have. In my experience, that is always a mistake.

If you can answer yes to my questions above, I would ask if you have actually tried reversing an already burned-in cable to see if you hear a difference.
If you can't answer yes to those questions, it doesn't matter.

What is "impossible" and "ridiculous" is the "explanation" you offer, based on the framework of your own understanding and nothing more, for a phenomenon you do not believe exists.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Electrons do love to follow paths of least resistance and IMO wire direction can build "memory" with continual use.

Barry, do you believe an established burn in can be reversed after ~50 hours of use in the opposite direction?

 

I reverse mine once every 6 months to even out the wear.

 

Hi lovingthesound,

Never tried it myself but I wouldn't be surprised.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

No, I have never tried reversing my cables, nor have I noticed a difference after a break-in period.

And now, having said that, I predict that you're going to reject everything I'm saying simply because I haven't tried it. I can also tell you that I can't jump up and touch the moon without ever trying THAT either.

My explanation is consistent with our current scientific understanding of electricity. If you'd like, feel free to ask a professor of electrical engineering for his opinions on the matter. I'm sure he'll tell you that directional wire is utter nonsense.

Memory of WHAT, exactly?

What could you possibly be wearing out?

There are hundred year old houses with the original wiring still in them, where you can flip a lightswitch and turn on a light. Wires don't wear out over time, they don't start conducting differently because they've had their electrons jiggled around for a while.

Copper is an element with a specific atomic structure. As long as it maintains that structure, it will conduct electricity. And as long as it conducts electricity, it will convey a signal from an amplifier to a pair of speakers perfectly fine.

Basically what you're telling me is that you've discovered alchemy by passing an electric current through a chunk of copper. Man, if only those guys in the middle ages knew THAT!



Audiophilia has a frightening number of similarities to fundamentalist religion. It requires you to assume highly improbable (and in some cases impossible) things are true, and brands you a heretic if you dare to ask why.

I find that excruciatingly irritating.

 

It may or may conduct current equally well in both directions, but it usually does not sound the same. Because no one can show you a measured difference you claim that the difference can not exist.

I find this thinking to be very flawed. Many people who are responsible for the manufacture and design of audio gear, or any product that is supposed to sound a certain way is aware of the fact that there are some things you need to listen for, because there may not be a simple measurement that is going to tell you how to get things to sound good.

Life would be easy if we could measure everything. Really we could just design everything with a computer and be done with it. The sound quality of a stereo or an orchestra can't really be measured. This forum is about good sound...a thing that can't be measured or designed by a computer. You can measure a million things that can be measured in sound but not the thing that brings us here. So what is your point?

I would be ashamed to admit that when it comes to the sound quality of something I was so lazy in my thinking and so beholden to a certain set of beliefs that I would not perform the ultimate measurement of sound quality as my base test. LISTENING.

 

This is a matter of basic, elementary, high school-level physics. This is not something that requires millions of dollars of testing equipment and the assistance of the LHC to discover.

On the other hand, the placebo effect has been well and truly proven to exist. I have absolutely no doubts about that one.

 

If there is any directionality, I would explore the effect of the signal on the dielectric insulation, and not so much the conductor.

 

That's the thing, with alternating current, it doesn't matter. You're sending current through speaker wire in BOTH directions. Flipping the wire around doesn't change a thing, there's still current going both ways.

 

I'm not well versed enough in electronics to get into an argument, but, I know a speaker cable is essentially a very long capacitor. From my limited understanding, polarization of the dielectric occurs affecting the fields. Might this be an avenue to explore the possibility of directionality occurring?

 

Hi Kevin,

No, I'm not going to reject everything you say because you haven't tried it. That would only cause me to reject what you say regarding any possible sonic effects, since according to you, you do not have any experience in the matter.

If you have not heard a cable change during burn-in, as I said, I would not expect you to hear any change in reversing its direction. Both of these are relatively subtle changes - not at all insignificant but *relatively* subtle.

If you feel better believing your understanding of the "science" is complete, that there is nothing left for you to learn and any audible differences in this case are not possible, that is your right. It has been my experience that when folks do not believe there is more they can learn, they are invariably correct.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi Dansk,

I agree with the points made above by Moss and Barry. I'm a pretty skeptical thinker in many ways, but I suspect that the science just is not there to explain the qualitative differences in much of the stuff we listen to.

Sound quality is an art as well as a science. Stradivari died in 1737. He was able to produce violins that sound very good, combining warmth and a little reedy quality that make the sound carry. Listeners and musicians understand this, but there are really no scientific tests that explain why one instrument sounds good and another less so. If we applied what you are saying about our sound systems, we would have to say that all violins having the same dimensions and density and other measurable areas would have to sound the same.

But they don't.

The audio systems we listen to produce musical vibrations, just like that old violin. We now have laser measurements, and microscopic analysis of the varnish, but all that science does not mean much to luthiers building violins today. They remain aware of it, but ultimately is is not of value in telling them what sounds good. For that they must listen, and tune the instruments dimensions and soundpost placement, bridge thickness, all by ear. The sound is the thing that is to be judged, and that is the thing that must be our guide in things musical. Maybe if we wanted to reproduce test tones on our audio systems (that we could measure) your way would have more validity, but our systems produce music.

Joe

 

Copper wire is not a Stradivarius violin, nor is it a DAC.

That's what I'm trying to get across here: these are very simple, fundamental principles of physics. You guys keep coming back with examples of exceedingly complex technology that still has unexplained features, whereas I'm talking about the simplest thing on Earth: an element on the periodic table.

There are hundreds of thousands of variables in the construction of a violin, or a DAC. Both can vary greatly in their quality depending on the manner in which they are constructed.

Copper wire conducts electricity. We've measured exactly how well it conducts electricity, and that's really all there is to it. There's no special voodoo going on inside a chunk of copper, trust me.

 

What are the "very simple, fundamental principles of physics" that apply?

 

The transfer of an electric charge from one atom to another.


Further reading.