Speaker Cable Direction?

did you mean to say 'effect of the dielectric on the signal' ?

The dielectric may affect the surface layers of the conductor. Keep in mind that these are molecular and in comparison to the section of the conductor are miniscule. Moreover these will not be the path of least resistance for the electrons.

 

You quote a Wiki page on static electric charges? That's on the wrong track.

 

If you like, I'll go find you a textbook and mail it to you, I just assumed this was more convenient.

 

I haven't got the energy to get involved with this discussion. But if I did, I could bring to light my experiences.

I have built dozens of interconnects and power cords. Modified many pieces of equipment which includes the internal hook up wires (that I blend myself) Yup, I hand polish strands of OCC copper and silver, coat with oil and then insulate with either polyethylene or teflon dielectric.

Everything contributes to the sound of the final product.

Wire can sound different in one direction vs the other.

The sound that passes thru the finished wire will change over time.

No further comments will be made.

 

Hi reb,

There you go, clouding the issue with direct empirical experience over time.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Kevin,

Maybe what I should ask you to consider is weather there is any possibility whatsoever that your current state of learning is not complete in this area. What do you think the odds are that your current state of understanding is perfect in this area? And why would I "trust you" when what you are saying goes against things I've heard many times and for many years?

Thinking of all the scientific study in this world that goes on every day, is it not possible that answers are already out there? Just not in a language or place you have spent learning time?

I don't expect voodoo in the wire. I do know that there is sometimes voodoo in science until someone completes the picture or expands upon it in the future. Many scientists seem eager to tell us that we have serious climate problems to worry about, and just as many seem to contradict them. They both have their graphs, measurements, historical data, etc.

Maybe it is the wise man who understands the limits of his knowledge.

Perhaps if I were studying to be an electrical engineer I could accept that in certain conditions wire performs like wire and I would absolutely be comfortable with that. But why would I assume (without proof) that a particular set of specifics like the impact on musical sound in a persons audio system would not be affected unless I sat down and listened to it?

You just overlook that the wire in this context is used in a system that is playing music, and is being listened to for musical pleasure, which is not the same thing as technical performance.

Joe

 

.

 

Sound can be discussed as pure science forever but only each individual's unique biochemical exposure can unveil where the magic sleeps for them.

The first section of NMA's "White Coats" lyrics, even though dealing primarily with genetics, somehow seem fitting to post here now ...

"Well we know what makes the flowers grow - but we don't know why
And we all have the knowledge of DNA - but we still die
We perch so thin and fragile here upon the land
And the earth that moves beneath us, we don't understand
So we rush towards the Judgement Day, when She reclaims
A toast to the Luddite martyrs then, who died in vain
Down at the lab they're working still, finishing off
How do we tell the people in the white coats
Enough is enough?" ...

 

You changed your post!
but,

If the guy on shore is holding a thermometer in the water - then I'd go with him.

Brad

 

Hi Brad,

Yes I did, for clarity.

What would that thermometer tell you about the salinity of the water?
Or if there were any stinging jellyfish?
Or about the tide or if there was any undertow?

Understand my point?
The "answer" one gets (or does not get) is very dependent on the question they ask.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

With all due respect, you're using empirical evidence very loosely, Barry. So far I have yet to see a single post in this thread that qualifies for entry into a scientific study of a phenomenon.

There are two requirements that must be met before a phenomenon can be accepted as real beyond a reasonable doubt. They are repeatability and a lack of external influence.

A single, isolated event does not prove anything, nor does a repeated event where there is feedback external to the event that is being studied.

I would be perfectly willing to accept the reality of the effect of direction on speaker wire if any one of you was willing to undergo a double blind test. Double blind testing is the ONLY scenario that satisfies science in matters of audio.

First, a series of tests allows for a demonstration of repeatability. If you can only do something every now and then by freak chance, then it's not possible to conclude that you're actually able to do it. You have to be able to tell the difference between the directions of the speaker wire more frequently than can be accounted for by random chance.

Second, the tests must be blind in order to remove the possibility of the placebo effect affecting the results. As long as you know what you're listening to, that knowledge will cloud your perception.

Until those two criteria are met, I refuse to accept the reality of any of the experiences in this thread, and I have very good scientific grounds for doing so.

 

And with that, I'm leaving the thread. It's not worth discussing this if one half of the argument isn't allowed to be made.

 

Hi Kevin,

Why "accept" it under any circumstances if you don't hear it? It will not change what you do or do not hear.

Did you read my earlier responses to you? I have no problem with your believing whatever you wish to believe.

Neither do I have any desire to "convince" you or anyone else. As far as I'm concerned, this is (like so many other things in audio) something one either hears or does not.

This being the case, I find exchanges like this can get tiresome quite quickly. In order to avoid repeating myself, I will wish you a good night.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

One thing that is often not mentioned is the quality of the connections at the terminals. If you are using banana plugs the fit may not be the same at the amp and the speaker sockets due to manufacturing tolerances. Surface area and contact pressure can be crucial in connections. Also keep in mind that these will deteriorate over time. Spades or direct wire contacts can have the same problems.

What I am trying to say is that when you switch the cable around -all you may be doing is improving the connections.

 

And cleaning them too!

 

Off you go then.

How is that Static Electricity text book going? Is it helping you a lot with your understanding of the conduction of alternating electrical current?

No, I guess not.

 

I'm at RMAF....the first demo I heard today was a demo of a new WBT speaker binding post. The "stock" post was gold plated brass, which acc. to WBT costs them 69¢ in material costs. I then heard a binding post with much less metal in the portion that connects to the speakers wiriing, but made out of very pure copper (and not plated in gold). This post costs WBT over $7 each in material costs.

Needless to say, the consensus of the 10 or so folks in the room was that the coppper-based WBC 710CU binding post was notably better sounding. The speakers were wired in such a way that all the WBT guy had to do was change the binding posts the speaker cables attached to (the speakers had bi-wire set of terminals which were each rewired "singly" to the XO networl; thus the only thing that was changed in the demo was the binding post.

 

Perfect example of the folly of this whole directional speaker wire business. Your statement that "just as many seem to contradict them" shows ignorance of the current state of climate science among climate scientists, much as this discussion about speaker wire direction exposes a basic lack of physical understanding of how alternating current works in a conductor.

But, much like your perception that there is still a real debate among scientists concerning climate change, people lurking here trying to educate themselves about audio reproduction might think there is a solid physical reason for swapping the direction of their speaker wire. Which is a shame, really, because there are certainly many tweaks with strong physical justification that enthusiasts could be trying that actually could have real potential benefits.

 

Seems like theres a trend in which people with shot ears try to aggressively tell others they have golden ears. Seriously dansk, whats there to argue? Either you hear it, or you don't. Others hear it, I hear it, good for us, you don't, too bad for you. Why try to start an arguement?

 

Why is this such an issue for people? Just try it yourself! You can argue until you're blue in the face but I think you'll be surprised when you hear an audible difference.

 

I commend Barry and a few others for the well articulated efforts to persuade one to consider things beyond the basic physics or measurable factors in audio. I tend to steer clear, as its a tiresome debate that often becomes unfriendly. When I was in college, I used to be rooted in the "basic physics" understanding as well. Reading and listening allowed me to learn more. The air dielectric discussed earlier in this thread, and minimizing RFI are a few revelations I've experienced, which would not be measurable but are undoubtedly audible. There is so much more, but it's not for everybody.

 

If the lurkers read all of the posts, they should surmise that there are a set of fundamental characteristic to AC, and there might be a subtle audible difference for directional shielded cables, that is not supported by a measurement - because not everything that affects an audio system can be measured. I would expect the effect of shielded cable direction to be very subtle, inaudible to many, and I personally cannot hear it in my system - but I do not discount that it may be audible in others systems. There is no shame in flipping the wires around and finding out for yourself without the support of measurements - kind of fun actually