Steve Berlin of Los Lobos remembers working with Paul Simon...and it was NOT good.

I don't think Garfunkel has ever claimed he wrote the third verse of "Bridge." He has said he suggested the idea of a third verse, which Simon wrote.

Simon more or less agrees:

Do you have a source for that?

 

Also how has this thread manged to get eight pages deep with no mention that the "Los Lobos up" mix of the song in contention is a current bonus track on the digipack'ed Graceland Remaster?

 

I saw Paul open for Dylan in '99. First time I had seen Paul and second time I had seen Dylan. Paul put on a good show. When Dylan came on I was frankly shocked at how much more excited the crowd got. The place just got electric with Dylan up there. It kind of put in perspective how big (or little) of a star Paul really is/was. I wonder if that's a humbling experience for these artists?

 

Absolutely! As someone else mentioned you guys have had an impressive run of albums. Like other favorites of mine, Alejandro Escovedo and Richard Thompson to name two, the money is hard earned. In this jaded world we live in, it's nice to see bands like yours be so consistent and true.

I was disappointed that you didn't play your annual December shows at The Fillmore last year. Hope to see you there again real soon.

 

Well, the opening story doesn't surprise me at all, not being a Simon fan I guess I don't need to fill in that part of my library.

 

I've never seen the movie, but have always loved the album, even though it wasn't quite as good as Rhymin' Simon, S/T, and Crazy.

 

Well - this makes me feel better about John Lennon swiping some of
Zappa's stuff.

I've seen Zappa complain that Lennon renamed "King Kong" (as played
at the Fillmore East) "Jamrag". I didn't realize what the beef was
until I eventually heard Zappa's "King Kong"

 

If this were the first time that Paul was accused of 1) cultural imperialism
or 2) borrowing complete songs or 3) of being a jerk to others in the industry,
I would not believe this newly told old story. BUT I believe every word of it
because it is entirely in line with his lifetime's behaviour and character.
He has been accused of all 3 offenses many times before and here
it all is again. This time it's a first-person account.

 

Crazy story but it doesn't surprise me the way the music industry has and will always be run.

 

I really like the album a lot (the film embarassed me, but I thought Lou was very good), but I recognize that most people think the album is barely passable or even think it stinks. I would certainly agree with Steve's assessment about Paul being 'up against it' after Hearts and Bones.

 

Thanks for your caveat, but I'm not sure how this benefits Berlin's or Los Lobos' experience in the described instance.

It's a bit like a famous jewel thief, upon his being apprehended, proclaiming: "Hey, I *bought* some of my jewelry too!!"

From the standpoint of the *ethics* of being an artist, the behavior is completely deplorable.

From the standpoint of his fans -- given that this is *one more* such dubious incident involving Simon, now recorded for posterity -- it throws into question the man's entire catologue. How do we know what was his, and what germinated from contributions by other session guys?

On any number of albums. "Me and Julio Down By the Schoolyard," for example. Anyone here know the etiology of that song?

 

I guess I was questioning your statement "the business that came out years ago with regard to the African artists." After all, the album seemed to benefit several of said artists. It's odd that Los Lobos had such a negative experience.

 

It's always been a difficult thing to quantify, even within bands. Look at the case that guy from Procol Harum brought against Gary Brooker. Steve Gadd came up with that drum part for "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover," but doesn't see any royalties for it because it's not "music."

It's true that part of Paul's m.o. on this record, on some of the tracks anyway, was to sing his own words and melodies over other people's music. "Gumboots" and "I Know What I Know" were done the same way, but in those cases the original composers were credited. It's unfortunate that he was so inconsistent about providing credit -- probably he got away with it because Los Lobos hadn't recorded the song themselves.

 

I was referring to criticisms of Paul Simon by the African American community in the '80's and '90's. I was on the fence at the time, in terms of their argument that Paul Simon had colonized the music of the South Africans, whose music he had co-opted.

Unfortunately, stories like Mr. Berlin's cause me to give Simon less benefit of the doubt than I was once inclined to do.

 

It's always been a difficult thing to quantify, even within bands. Look at the case that guy from Procol Harum brought against Gary Brooker. Steve Gadd came up with that drum part for "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover," but doesn't see any royalties for it because it's not "music."


Fair enough, but as an "artist" -- not my favorite term, but there it is -- myself, Berlin's account has too much of the smell of truth to it.

I've experienced enough collaborations myself to know how *frequently* there is one artist who is doing the lionshare of the work. At a minimum, one expects equal credit in such cases.

For Simon to have essentially had his musical work done for him -- apparently across the entire album -- makes me respect him less as an artist, on multiple levels. For him to have been apparently so churlish about giving credit where it was due, is essentially unforgivable.

The Stones are my favorite band, and I've certainly heard some of the Cooder stories. But, at the end of the day, they as a discreet band were mining blues and rhythm and blues material at a very high level, before Cooder ever made his appearances on Beggars Banquet and Let it Bleed. Doesn't mean that Cooder shouldn't have maybe gotten credit for his contribution to song structure, but I've got a feeling that Mick and Keith would've managed in his absence.

In Simon's case, on what grounds -- in terms of his background as a musician -- does he take credit for the material on Graceland? It always seemed clear to me that he co-opted it, and this theoretically diminished his contribution to an inarguably artistically successful album.

But, again, Berlin's story adds a further dimension. And a far from pleasing one.

 

They would have to have a legit recorded copy that can be dated and corroborated. They should have made a copyright of the song, even a rough demo before offering it to Simon. It sounds like they had no verbal agreement in the studio when they let Simon use the song. I can easily see how this could happen.

 

Simon was open all along about the album being in many ways a collaborative project. The album has substantial liner notes explaining how he came up with the idea for doing the record, which bands he worked with in South Africa, how many of the songs were created etc. He didn't just put the album out with no explanation. And it's not really fair to say that all of his musical work was done for him -- his creative contribution as a lyricist and melodist is considerable even to the songs that he acknowledges are adaptations of African records.

And yet for some reason, he did not extend Los Lobos the same respect, and so here we are.

 

Not to mention Ian Hunter, who made more money from Barry Manilow recording his "Ships" in 1979 than he had in his entire career to that point. Then he made another chunk o' change when Great White recorded "Once Bitten Twice Shy" in 1989.

 

"...his creative contribution as a lyricist and melodist is considerable even to the songs that he acknowledges are adaptations of African records."


All due respect, but, given the new light that Berlin's account casts on Simon's notion of collaboration during the project, how can you be certain of this?

The lyrics, yes. But anything -- including melody -- having to do with the music? How do we know?

 

Not to mention Cleveland Rocks, courtesy of Drew Carey!

 

Well, maybe Steve Berlin can tell us whether the melody Paul sings on "All Around the World" is his or David Hidalgo's (actually, it does sound like something Hidalgo would write). Somehow I suspect "Gumboots" and "I Know What I Know" had very different vocals in Zulu but I can't say for sure. Anyone heard the original records?

 

I remember reading Tom Verlaine said he lives a comfortable life because David Bowie covered "Kingdom Come" on his Scary Monsters album.

Well, that would be an exaggeration. The average standard mechanical royalty rate since "Scary Monsters" came out might be about 6.5¢ a song. Subtract from that a minimum of 25% of the publisher's cut (though it could be double that, given the time in which the deal was made) and Verlaine might have made an average of 5¢ for every copy of "Scary Monsters" sold.
Even if "Scary Monsters" has sold 5 million copies worldwide (doubtful) and even if you don't factor in the reality that overseas royalties would be even lower, the most Verlaine could have made might be $250,000. Which, spread out over 28 years would be only $9,000 per annum. Not a very comfortable life! Subtract management percentages and taxes and it's maybe around $6000. Of course, he would have done better when the album was selling loads - he probably doesn't make more than a grand or two a year off it today.

About Simon. The guy's a complete jacka**, and that fact's pretty much undisputed within the music would. His talent, in my mind, has always been in arranging and in recognizing a good thing early on. He's got a great ear. But aside from the many stories of him ripping others off - "Graceland" with both Los Lobos and (originally) many of the South African musicians, Art Garfunkel here and there, arrangements of "Scarborough Fair" and the vehemence with which many people who've worked with him (notably on "Capeman," from my own conversations with people) speak of their experiences:

1) I can't believe no one's brought up the famous story of Paul Simon "teaching" a guitarist how to play the "tricky" part to the rock version of "The Sound Of Silence" - which Simon claimed he played - without realizing that the guy whom he was teaching was, in fact, the guy who came up and played with the part in the studio. Simon was in England when it was done, apparently. But that's his ego, in a nutshell.

2) I've talked to two guys who were in the Dynamites - the studio band at Dynamic in Jamaica - who played on "Mother And Child Reunion" and when I mentioned Simon, they both rolled their eyes and muttered something about "big boss man" and cackled like crazy. Thirty years later, it was clear they still detested the guy, and remembered him vividly.

3) The lyrics of "Cecilia" (aside from the name itself) and the music are rooted in what's now a calypso standard, but presumably has been around much, much longer as a sort of pre-calypso Caribbean folk tune. I doubt anyone could claim "credit" for the song, so rooted as it is in the folk tradition - but for Simon to claim he wrote (rather than arranged and altered) it is sheer hubris on his part.

4) Does anyone remember Simon's rant against punk rock and it's utterly meaningless and stupid songs - which resulted in the Canadian punk band the Diodes doing a cover of his own "deep" tune, "Red Rubber Ball?"

5) In a lot of his "ethnic" recordings, Simon's fans seem to rarely know much about the music he's borrowing from. So he tends to get credit for ideas that are pretty average in South Africa or Brazil or wherever. On the one hand, he's made interesting choices and taken chances that haven't always worked. But on the other hand, from "El Condor Pasa" and "Cecilia" to "Capeman," his modus operandi is pretty obvious.

To me, Simon's kind of a much better version of what Billy Joel is - a "pastiche" artist who's a bit of a dilletante in various musical styles.

But while Joel's music was always pretty wretched, years behind the time and never as good as the better songs of the genres and artists he aped ("The Longest Time" as weak doo-wop, "It's Still Rock And Roll To Me" as weak Joe Jackson, "We Didn't Start The Fire" as a weak "Life Is A Rock," etc), Simon's was often pretty good - even great. Sometimes he set the bar pretty high - unlike Joel. He was quicker to pick up on (or even create) trends, his musicians were top-notch and interesting, he avoided a lot of the saccharine production and sentimentality that further clog Joel's much weaker tunes.

You've got to give him credit for that. I suspect that if you removed all the obvious "stolen" songs or ideas from his oeuvre, his reputation would suffer greatly. Maybe Simon & Garfunkel would still be a notch or two above many bands from the 60s (but not four or five notches), yet as a solo artist, he'd be viewed as more lackluster. When I hear stuff that seems the most truly "Paul Simon" in his solo work, I'm struck at her weirdly verbose and amelodic some of it is. I like his voice a lot, I tend to like the arrangements, and there are ideas there . . . but a very high percentage of his imminently lovable pop songs seem borrowed.

Of course, given the public record about his rip-offs, he's probably stolen other things we don't know about too. So accuracy is hard to judge. I'll also give him credit for helping in ways to bring various "world" musics to greater popularity in the States.

But he's clearly a jerk with an ego problem who's stolen from others. He's one of the few artists whose music I'll continue to honestly enjoy, but whom I'd still like to punch in the face.

And kudos to the Los Lobos fellow for being so candid. He had a lot of reasons not to do so: Simon fans (who outnumber Los Lobos fans) won't change their minds, he still won't get any money from it, and it probably just raises his heart rate to think about it.

 

Two brief points:

1. Maybe there are more facts that might put in a different light the portrayal of Simon in this thread. Maybe not. I do think that if I had to get rid of every record I have by any artist who has displayed thoroughly objectionable character traits I would be moving a lot of vinyl out the door, and a lot of my best stuff too.

2. If Drew Carey ended up funding a quality retirement for Ian Hunter the pearly gates will surely open wide for him when his time comes.

 

That's the Presidents of the United States of America playing the DCS theme, iirc.

 

In reply to Aswyth, the guitar player who played on Sounds of Silence was Vinnie Bell and the story goes that Bell was in the house band for Hullabaloo or some show that Simon and Garfunkel were on. Simon said "I want to teach you how to play this special thing I did on this song" and Bell replied "Don't worry I can do it." Simon persisted and said essentially that it was this special thing that he did in the studio that he wanted to recreate and Bell replied "Don't worry man, I know it." Finally after some more badgering by Simon, Bell said to him "I know it, I played it on the record."