MCINTOSH AMPS - urgent help needed!

Since I lost my tube amp recently I was trying to figure out which way to go. I'm left with Sony XA9000ES payer and Vandersteen 1C speakers (which I hope to upgrade to 3C in the future). First I decided to go multichanel. I tried Sony TA-DA9000ES digital multichanel amp (not at home though) and was really unsatisfied. The sound was cold, harsh and unmusical. What's worse - I realised that I can't stand multichanel sound. I played Machine Head SACD and it was so unnatural and disturbing - like a bad trip if you know what I mean. I know that ots of people enjoy MCh so I guess it's just not my stuff. So at the time being I decided to get myself a good stereo amp (and buy a separate not too expensive reciever later just for HT needs). Now the background is that I've been on tubes for a long time. The problem is at least 70 % of my music is hard rock/metal so I need an amp which rocks hard and has a TIGHT and PUNCHY bass. And since I'm yet to hear a tube amp that is able to do that (at a realistic price!) I'm considering going solid state. On the other hand, I'm so used to warmth of tubes that I need to find a SS amp that is musical enough. Which brings us to McIntosh. I heard great things about their musicality and tube-like warmth. My budget is around $3000 - 4000 so I'm considering Macs 6500 and 6900. The question is: will they rock? Do they have a tight and powerful bass? Are they honest and neutral or are they way too sweet? Do they have enough detail, 3D and slam? Or are they too laid back to be a good combo with my Vandies? The probem is I can't get them for home audition n Moscow so I have to guess. Since all Mac gear has the same character I hope that you can help me out even if you haven't heard these exact models! I know there are a lot of people who know Mac here!

 

Hi,

Haven't heard those exact units but it sure does sound like some of McIntosh's SS gear may be exactly what you're wanting. Given your emphasis for "TIGHT and PUNCHY bass", i doubt you're gonna find tube gear in your budget range that completely meets your desires. By the same token, it doesn't sound like you'd be pleased w/ traditional SS gear.

Good luck,
Jeffrey

 

Yes, the McIntosh SS stuff is very warm sounding. I looked at a McIntosh when I got my new amp. I ended up going with an Adcom GFA-5400, which is also a very warm sounding SS amp, but not as warm as the McIntosh. I would have gotten the McIntosh, but it was a bit out of my budget at the time. Don't let the low prices of the Adcom amps fool you, they are really great amps, very well made, and extremely large transformers.

 

Since you mention the 6500 and 6900 specifically, is your preference for an integrated amplifier?

Yeah, they'll rock, but the older the model, the more laid back they are. Bass is plenty tight and powerful with the newer models, but the older models are a touch looser on the bottom. If you like the warm Vandersteen house sound, I think you'd like McIntosh.

IMO, the newer models are neutral and they certainly have plenty of kick on the bottom. They have nice detail but aren't fatiguing...much like the detail of a smooth yet revealing tube amplifier. The first and second generation amplifiers are sweeter and less detailed being very similar to the vintage McIntosh tube components they were voiced to resemble.

Good question about the synergy with Vandersteens. I have 3A's myself, but have never had a McIntosh amplifier or preamplifier in my system. The McIntosh amps/preamps I've heard were always in other systems. I can tell you this: I recently added a McIntosh MR67 tuner to my system and very much like the sound, though it is clearly on the warm side of neutral. However, that tuner would be on the warm side of neutral in all but the brightest of systems. If you want a more neutral sound with your Vandies, I'd stick to newer McIntosh gear. I love the sound of older McIntosh gear, tube or SS, but it's not neutral.

I think the 6500/6900 integrated amps would work just fine with your speakers. My McCormack amplifier is similar in sound to the newer McIntosh models and it mates extremely well with the Vandersteens...like they were made for each other.

 

Hi there antonkk,

The definite question to help you further along is if you want integrated or not.

If you do, then the MA6900 is one heck of a peice. Combines the amp section of the MC-202 (which I used to own) with a nice pre-amp. This integrated will have plenty of power and gobs of bass. Your music styles will be a perfect fit for the "Mac" sound. Any McIntosh amp/integrated amp will be on the other side of the sound spectrum compared to any Sony receiver. I should know, I've owned a few of each

 

Agree with Sam and Arin. I had a Mac 6900 in the house for a few days. Real nice integrated, with good bass and nice balance of warmth and detail. Not harsh. The only reason I didn't keep it is because it didn't have a tape monitor switch. Not a big deal for many, but when you own several Nakamichis, that's still important. Still, I stuck with Mac - just had to ultimately go separate amp and preamp.

 

Thanx a lot for your help, gentlemen! Looks like Macs are a good choice! As for integrated vs separates - well I think I don't have enough money to get Mac separates so integrated is a good idea in my situation! Now I have to choose between 6500 and 6900. The price difference is amost $1500 - but is 6900 THAT better?.....

 

The 6900 uses autoformers whereas the 6500 doesn't. Autoformers allow the amp to deliver full power into any load. That accounts for most of the price difference, along with some added gadgets in the preamp section.

The autoformers are largely responsible for the McIntosh sound. Without the autoformers, they aren't quite as smooth, and that's the magic of McIntosh amps IMO.

Since McIntosh products are well-made and highly reliable, you might consider buying lightly used gear to save some cash. I can't think of a used component I'd feel safer buying. Just a thought...

 

I agree 100% with Arin. I would go for the 6900 without hesistation. Yes, it's more mone new or used, but it's something you'll have for a long time. Also, I do think there's significant sonic and performance differences with the auto-former based 6900.

 

I know you are considering amps further up the ladder than the one I just bought, but thought I would chime in anyway. With help from Arin and others, I ended up buying a used 2105 a few weeks ago. This is one of the earlier solid state amps that was voiced to sound more similar to tubes. But even so, I was very surprised at how much bass slam it provides. It pumps it out. I didn't audition any current solid state amps, so I am unable to reference their performance. But my guess is that they would have even more powerful bass, which would be quite impressive indeed.

 

From what I read 6900 has 3 position for autoformers - 2,4 and 8 Ohms. My Vandies have 6 Omhs (??????). As you may guess, physics are not my strongest field (when I was in school I was lucky that my physics teacher was into hard rock so I gave her my Rainbow and Yngwie Malmsteen albums and got passable marks in return) so I don't know if that's OK with Mac....

P.S. Now I know I sound VERY stupid but that's what happens when you spend your high school years headbanging and playing air guitar ...

 

You'd want to use the 4ohm tap for a 6ohm speaker IMO. Since they are nominally rated at 6, they certainly will drop below that at certain frequencies.

You can definitely experiment though. I find the 4ohm tap to work/sound best with my B&Ws.

 

Well, I just had a look at the specs for your 1C's, and we've got a problem here. The recommended RMS wattage is 20-100. Both the 6500 and 6900 would feed way too much juice to your Vandies. (200W any load for 6900/160W into 8 ohms, 200W into 4 ohms for 6500)

The nominal impedance for the 1C's is given as 6.8 ohms, with a 4 ohm minimum. Although a moot point with regard to the 6500/6900, I'd personally use the 8 ohm tap as it's closer to the speaker's nominal 6.8 ohms than the 4 ohm tap, even though the 4 ohm tap would give a more linear response due to the lowered output impedance of that tap in this particular instance. Irrelevant, though, as both the 6500 and 6900 would be a mismatch for the Vandersteen 1C. Bummer.

There is the MC2275, McIntosh's new tube integrated based on the newest incarnation of the MC275 tube amplifier, the Mk IV. Unfortunately, MSRP for a new unit is $6000 IIRC. Since it's so new, even a used unit would still probably fall out of budget here.

Ian's MC2105 is a real sweetheart of an amplifier, but you'd need a preamp, too. The C28 was its typical mate back in the day. Still, you might find that combo to be too warm for your Vandies. I'd probably like that with my Vandies, but it wouldn't be neutral. Perfect for a warm freak like me.

What tube amp were you using with your Vandies, Anton? That would help us in understanding the sound you were getting. Tight bass and descriptors like that are all relative to what you're used to hearing.

No way, not stupid at all. When I see folks asking stuff like this, my impression is they must be a pretty smart cookie to be seeking help.

 

I was using a russian handmade 15W tube amp, so I'm afraid that's no help (a few of them were sold in Vegas as "Prince of Russia" as far as I know though). The amp was really good, not too sweet, detailed and with a very good bass control FOR A TUBE AMP. Still compared to any decent SS amp the bass sucked...I was satisfied with this one for some time but then I had to part with it for personal reasons and decided to get a more rocking amp next.

As for the power problem I contacted a Mac expert on this issue and that's what Chuck Hinton of McIntosh wrote me (It was so kind of him to answer so quick and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here!):

"Either the MA6500 or MA6900 do very well with both 1Cs
and 3Cs. While you may have enough power to damage the speakers if you really
push them, The Power Guard will keep the amp from distorting and keep your
tweeters safe, and the output meters will allow you to keep an eye on the
wattage to avoid prolonged use at well over 100 watts (especially on music with
out much dynamic range, that makes the needles jump to power and stay there
instead of bouncing.)
The extra power will ensure tighter, more powerful bass notes as well.
Chuck Hinton of McIntosh Tech. Support"

 

If Mac says it'll work, I say go for it! I think you'll get everything you're looking for out of the 6900...and for a long, long time.

BTW, strike what I said about the lower output impedance of the 4 ohm tap. That would be true for an amp without autoformers, but not with. My weekly brain cramp.

 

It's not that big of a deal to use an amp that has a more powerfrul rating than what your speakers are. These speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB. So with 1 watt of power they will play at 90 dB at 1 meter away (ignoring room size and other variables). The speakers will receive the same amount of power at the same volume with a given amount of power irregardless of what the maximum amplifier power is. The only difference is there will be more power available for transients.

 

Nothing but a bunch of extra headroom, eh? I suppose a greater S/N ratio, too. I was always concerned a big wattage excess would blow something during sharp power draws on transients, so stuck to speaker manufacturer's recommendations. I guess I'm a wattage whimp.

Thanks for the low-down.

 

That Power Guard feature that Mac patented is pretty amazing. When I was at Audio Classics the day I bought the MC2105, the salesman went in depth explaining that technology and how incredible it was. They started using it on amps after the MC2105 though, so I have no such feature. I love Mac stuff. The only word that comes to mind when I think McIntosh is "quality".

 

1. Yes, Macs rock. Yes, they have tight, powerful bass. Are they nuetral? No, not in the strictest sense. They are on the warm side. They do not provide as much sheer detail as some other amps, but it's enough (they don't sound smeared) and the detail they do provide sounds incredible. Macs do not induce listener fatigue. I have heard the newer models have a bit more nuetrality/detail than the older models, but I haven't heard them.

2. You can NEVER have too much power in a SS amp. When the specs on your speakers call for 20-100W RMS, it refers to CONTINUOUS power. Chances are you'll never run your speakers with 100W RMS - and if you did the power gaurd circuit would be lit almost continuously, because 200W isn't enough to handle the peaks from 100W RMS, which could run 400-500W or more. (without the power gaurd circuit the distortion would cook your tweeters.) I run dual McIntosh MC7270s bridged for mono for a total of 540wpc into Vienna Acoustics Mahlers which are rated at up to 200W RMS. If I really crank the suckers I can STILL trigger the power gaurd. The more watts you have the more headroom it provides for peaks. Keep in mind you're talking SS and not tubes, which tend to SOUND like a lot more watts because they overload so nicely. (Well, at least most do.) Chances are with the Vandersteens you won't be going past about 20W RMS anyway. But if you're looking for tightness and control, the more watts you have the better, provided you aren't sacrificing sound quality for the extra watts.

3. If your speakers are rated at ~6 ohms, try both the 4 and 8 ohm taps. Use the one that sounds the best to YOU. If you can't hear any difference, use the 4 ohm tap. It will be easier for your amp to drive your speakers from these taps. But you can use either.

4. Buy the amp with the autoformers. It's worth the extra money. That's where the classic Mac SS sound comes from. You won't get that sound without the autoformers, and the resale value as percentage of cost won't be as high down the road if you decide to opt for separates.

5. LISTEN TO THE AMP BEFORE YOU BUY. In your home, if possible. In my experience, people either fall in love with the Mac sound almost immediately, or they never do.

 

As they say, "If the first watt sucks, why go on?"

I think MCs first watts are pretty OK.

 

Thanx everybody for your help! Unfortunately there is no chance for me to audition Mac 6900 (not a single one in Moscow shops at the moment!) so I decided to take a risk and ORDER it! You know I never spent $4100 on something that I never even touched by my own hands but so far my "blind buys" like Vandies and Sony 9000 turned out to be just great so I'm holding my breath and waiting for this beauty to arrive!

 

I'm jealous.

Not to freak you out or anything, Anton, but McIntosh has this policy of warranties only applying to over-the-counter purchases. Something about protecting authorized dealers.

Did you order the unit from an authorized McIntosh dealer in Moscow?

 

Sure! And it comes with a 5 year warranty in Moscow!

 

Ah, you will like this! I know it's a lotta $$, and shipping to Moscow has gotta be expensive, but you've got a real American classic there