Wilco fans-What are your thought's on Jay Bennett?

I like what Bennett contributed to the recorded Wilco sound, but I think they are a much better band these days. Watching a few recorded performances from the Summerteeth era, they just didn't sound that great live in my opinion. The songs were there, the energy was there, the lit cigarettes were there, but the performances sounded like caricatures of their album counterparts. This could be due to the fact that Summerteeth has a lot of unique keyboard/synth parts that are difficult to reproduce live.

I can't comment on Bennett's personality, other than what I've seen in the film. He seemed like a real douche, but then again so does Tweedy at times. By now we should learn to separate the man from the music. Tweedy is a ridiculously good songwriter.

As a live band these days, they've never sounded better. Glenn Kotche is one of the greatest drummers in modern rock, and Nels Cline...well, yeah.

 

Several years ago we went to see Cowboy Junkies in Chicago and Jay B. opened for him (along with some other goofball).

Jay spent more time using the 'f' word, drinking beer and smoking a cigarette than he did sing. He was a complete jerk and I'm sure he did not make many new fans that night.

 

Well it seems apparent that obviously Tweedy is a great songwriter whomever he collaborates with-He certainly has a track record from what I've heard and seen written.
It seems that Jay musically did help flesh out a lot of the songs and add that finishing touch.
Which is fine-That shouldn't detract from Tweedy's accomplishments on any of the earlier albums. It's funny-it seems the struggle between Tweedy/Bennett as far as attitudes and who did what, etc... has carried over to some of the fans it seems. Interesting.

I must say though that I have been getting into Wilco lately and so far I do enjoy more the earlier stuff up through YHFT.
AGIB doesn't quite do it for me although I will give it more of a chance.There are moments of brilliance.
As far as newer material-I am a huge Nels Cline fan-just not sure how to take him in this setting.

 

Live playing is a different deal. I like the coked up 97 being There tour aesthetic, it works for the sound and spirit of that LP, I definitely agree that as a live band they went to **** around the time of Summerteeth. If you look at video footage of the time, or saw them you will remember that Jeff Tweedy was OUT of it, and JB probably was somewhat of a factor in encouarging that behavior but by all accounts Jeff was self medicating in a major way and was emotionally unstable. He numbed himself into submission: I think he and JB were really into downers at the time and it is a shame becasue they didn't do a great job of promoting that record as a result.

As a live band I agree that they are probably as good as they have ever been now days. I enjoy Nel's shredding, and think their last ACL performance was GREAT.

Also cool is the 2003 tour, Jeff was still struggling perosnally perhaps but he played his *** off , his guitar playing that summer, he really tore up his SG and wanted to prove that he could rip leads.

Spiders and Handshake drugs were written in the early 00s, but I didn't hear Wilco do their arrangement live until after JB left. The 2001/2002 arrangement of Spiders is super cool. It was incredible spacey, popy surfy dreamy kind of a thing. I reccomend the April 2002 SBD show from upstate NY, can't remember the venue.

Clay

 

I found a live DVD of theirs on the '99 tour and Jeff really seemed like he wasn't enjoying a second of it. He even talked some smack about Jay to the audience, something to the effect of:

"We played here last night too, and for those of you who caught that show, we're glad you decided to show up for another one. The only thing is, by now you've noticed we're playing the exact same setlist. I think it's stupid, but Jay says that if you go to see the Broadway show Cats twice, you're not going to get a different show each time."

That certainly doesn't help tear down the portrait of Jay as a self-important "rock star". It drives me nuts when bands play the exact same thing every night, as though they're some traveling circus. Between that and the absurd argument caught on film over the mixing of "Heavy Metal Drummer", I'd say his departure is good riddance. That kind of personality in a band just brings everybody else down.

 

No, none of them were played until the post-Bennett tours.

 

Summerteeth and YHF are my favorite Wilco albums, so I think Jay added more positives than the band without him. With their duelling personalities, could have been he forced Jeff to sharpen his focus and come up with whole albums of solid songs. The last two albums were good but with enough fillers to bring them a notch down.

 

I agree with this in regard to Sky Blue Sky, but I think A Ghost Is Born is as good if not better than Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. The only thing I skip is the feedback/drone segment at the end of "Less Than You Think".

 

Wow, lots of very different opinions about what constitutes "good" Wilco. That says something right there.

And as for me, I think Sky Blue Sky is bloody brilliant. And if you could hear all that magic that I hear in it, you would too.

 

This is an outtake from the YHF sessions and is, frankly, amazing. It really needs an official release, it's as good as anything that appeared on YHF, though I suppose it doesn't really fit on that album which may have been why it was left off.

As for Jay Bennett, I think Driver 8 has nailed it. He contributed a lot to the Wilco sound, especially on Summerteeth, but having him and Tweedy in the same band was unsustainable long-term.

Tom

 

I agree. Sky Blue Sky is the first Wilco album since Being There that I found even remotely interesting (well, maybe parts of Ghost is Born). Less slick poppiness and some excellent guitar make it a great album for me.

 

Actually I don't think YHFT is slick or poppy at all. It is a kind of a mess.

That is why I like it.

 

As squealy noted, I think that Bennet contributed quite a bit to the music of the Summerteeth/YHF period. By all accounts, Tweedy was responsible for 99% of the lyrics, and he is clearly a far more talented lyricist than Bennett. I'll repeat the point that Bennett strikes me as a rather unique facilitator in the mold of Brian Jones - i.e., he brought out the best in Tweedy in the same way that Jones brought out the best in Jagger/Richards, but, like Jones, Bennett appears unable to reach those heights working by himself. As others have noted, Tweedy has arguably never reached the same heights without Bennett, either.

If this anecdote paints anyone in a bad light, it's Tweedy, imho. If you're having an argument with your spouse or your bandmate or whomever, you don't air your dirty laundry in public. If Tweedy disagreed with Bennett about the setlist, the place to air that disagreement was backstage, not onstage.

Again, the absurd argument about mixing "Heavy Metal Drummer" doesn't cast either man in a good light, imho. I traded in my copy of the YHF documentary because, as interesting as some of the alternate studio takes in that film are, I just don't feel the need to watch bands act like spoiled children and bicker amongst themselves, whether it's the Beatles in Let It Be or Wilco in their movie. I got enough of that when I was in a band to last a lifetime - and I'm in no hurry to relive it. I agree that both men come across in the film as total douches, as did Pat Sansone, by the way, when the Autumn Defense played a club show at the bar I was working at a few years ago. John Stirratt seems to be the one member of the band with his feet on the ground, as far as I can tell.

In the end, you're correct - if you can't separate the man from the music, you probably wouldn't have many rock albums left to listen to. Pete Townshend can be a total ********, but that doesn't make me throw away my Who records.

 

Now that I think of it, I recall reading something online or in a magazine where Bennett, clearly concerned that he was not going to get any credit for its success after being fired, went through the whole YHF album describing exactly what he contributed to each song.

And with some research, here it is:

http://www.gloriousnoise.com/?pg=bennettyhf.php

 

Good point.

Glenn Kotche, too. Maybe that's just because I have a shameless man-crush on him.

 

I'm not sure the setlist anecdote really paints either in a bad light. To me that is just taking the piss out of someone. It doesn't sound that mean spirited.

It's been years since I watched the famous Heavy Metal Drummer argument but my memory of it is that Jay was argumentative and Jeff, having a migraine, really wanted the argument to stop but Jay wouldn't let it go. IIRC Jeff walked over and put his arm around Jay at the end. Jeff's "I don't always have to understand you" reminds me of George Harrison's "I'll play anything you want me to play...whatever it is that pleases you I'll do it" in Let It Be.

When I read that Jay was out the band I was a little worried Wilco might loose some of the magic that had graced Summerteeth and YHF but I was excited to hear what Jay was going to do next. I really thought he would come up with some great stuff. Well, A Ghost Is Born completely floored me while Jay's stuff just wasn't that memorable. The lack of memorable Jay Bennet songs after the split tells me that Tweedy was the creative force behind most of those songs. I do like your Jay Bennet/Brian Jones analogy though and I consider Jay to be an extremely creative multi-instrumentalist.

 

Well from that article link posted it looks like 70% of the music came from Jay Bennett on YHF (according to Jay!), which means Jeff only came up with about 3 tunes and added bits and pieces to Jays other tunes as well as most of the lyrics . Hmmm. Heavy Metal Drummer is my least favourite song on the album and i thought that would be primarily Jay's but he's claiming none of that. Whereas ones i thought his influence minimal on; 'Radio Cure' and 'Ashes..' are my favourites, and he's claiming most of them, interesting.

I wonder what Jeff's take on the division of labour (or labor in US speak) songwriting wise would be. I would put money on it being the complete opposite!!! I can easily believe his claims on what he played though.

I actually haven't scrutinized the songwriting credits on this album in a long time though, HMD i probably a Jeff Tweedy solo credit so i was probably assuming things from ear!

 

and right on cue after reading this thread through, wxpn plays secret of the sea. wonder if jay or jeff would claim this turd? (i know it's guthries' lyrics but the arrrangement is blah)

enjoyable read so far i'll add. good points all. i come down on the agib side of things and haven't been moved by sbs. jay b brought something unique to the band and i love bt, summerteeth and yhf but summerteeth is nearly unlistenable due to the cd mastering.

and yes, john stirrat is one of the most down to earth "rock stars" you'll ever meet, as is nels.

 

and right on cue after reading this thread through, wxpn plays secret of the sea. wonder if jay or jeff would claim this turd? (i know it's guthries' lyrics but the arrrangement is blah)

That's funny Secret of The Sea is one of my favorite Wilco studio tracks. It's very Jay Bennett, great 60's pop from roughly the Summerteeth era.

Do you also not dig "Someday, Some morning Sometime" ?
I think that is a great preview of what YHF was going to be like, and another high water mark of the Jay Bennett years.

Different strokes for me I prefer these kind of tunes to say "Side with the Seeds" or "Walken".

C

 

I think the Mermaid Avenue songs are some of the best stuff Wilco ever did, though it hardly ever seems to be mentioned when people talk about them.

 

ya know what, "someday morning sometime" isn't one of my favorites either. i think i've heard another mix on that one that i prefererred but that mix was likely done by jay b. sounds like its under water.

secrets of the sea has no guitar solo to speak of and is a bland arrangement instrumentally, imo. give me "feed of man" or "hoodoo voodoo" anytime.

 

Do you not like 60's style pop music?
I think we are just exact opposites when it come to that record. The songs you mention do little to nothing for me, they are throw aways to my ears. Whereas Someday Some Morning and Secret of the Sea are jubilant and I dare say majestic.

I'm sure some kid has Secret of the Sea up on youtube (work has that site blocked so I can't post a handy link) but if you listen to the track, it is the guitar solo that I love about that song. It is very Harrison-esque, baroque pop beauty.

Clay

 

i'll try to remember to put it on this evening and listen again.

i like plenty of pop music but i guess i like it with a little more rock to it. say mid period old 97's and jayhawks, bad finger, big star. i guess more power pop than pop.

 

Sounds good I like some power with my pop too.
Related to this subject Jay Bennet played some big star covers in clubs after he got sacked by Wilco.

C

 

On the other side of the coin, to me they are the emotional high point of every song he touches, including older stuff on Kicking Television. Nels' addition to the band has been an incredibly exciting thing to me, elevating them to a whole new level. I am going to be crushed if/when he leaves the band, but I'm prepared for the inevitability of it. I just don't see him being a permanent fixture, simply due to his nature as a jazz musician and the nature of Wilco needing new blood. And Wilco will continue putting out great music, I'm sure.

As for Jay, don't overlook his solo albums - they have some very strong stuff on them. The Palace at 4am is a little spotty, but overall quite good, but his most recent, The Magnificent Defeat, is excellent (once you skipped the first couple tracks, which I found very weak.)