I just got my copy of SR VV this afternoon, and have it cleaned up. I'm in the middle of disc one and it is just amazing. This is going to be very, very expensive because now I really want this phono-stage I have on loan. I have to take it back later next week (I've had it for two weeks now). Anyone on the fence about getting this shouldn't hesitate. This is going to knock something off my Gems list. The Jilted Gems list is growing. LOL.
I just did a comparo of the Tone Poet Sonny VV against: 2016 Japanese SHMCD 2013 24/192 hd tracks transfer For Disc 1 I used the Japanese CD, which doesn’t have bonus tracks. Then I compared the hi res to the tracks on Disc 2. I listened over speakers, at high volume to approximate a live performance! The SHMCD is loud, and (2024 SHF word of the year) brittle. I had to reduce by -8db to get volume parity!!! The TP is much more balanced, less shouty than the SHMCD. There’s no competition here, the TP easily wins in depth, timbre, realism, balance. The Hi Res transfer was very close to the TP. I didn’t have to massively adjust volumes to match. The hi res transfer had all the dynamics as the vinyl. The TP has just a slight bit more sweetness to the sax than the hi res transfer, but this is minimal on my setup. There’s a SNAP that occurs on Elvin’s drums, I think maybe the bass drum? That sounds a lot like a vinyl POP, but is actually the impact of the drum itself. The TP has is very very clearly, it kept tricking me into thinking the vinyl was bad. The HiRes file retains this crack; the SHMCD does NOT, it’s smoothed over or maybe limited so hard it lost that edge. Overall EQ choices are very similar between the TP and HiRes. Same amount of bass, mid, treble. It was hard to remember which input I was on. This was not the case with the SHMCD, which was mastered quite different. There was no audible change for tracks at the end of a side, so that isn’t an advantage for the digital. I’d say: if you’re looking to save some cash on this release, seek out the HD tracks 24/192 transfer. It gets you easily 90% of the way there to the TP!
I didn’t explicitly state it, but I’m happy with the release and feel like I got my money’s worth, 10% incremental improvement over the digital or not. This is a definitive package, AAA, and will be around a lot longer than the files on my spinning rust NAS drives…. (Good luck passing that down to your children in a will!)
TBH: your comparisons are irrelevant unless someone has the same analog and digital front ends as you. I might do the same comparison and come to a complete different conclusion? How do you even determine parity between digital and analog source components. I already know that my analog source components smoke my digital source and the latter is no slouch by any means.
I have done many comparisons using modern vinyl releases where they were cut from the digital file. And then played against the file itself. And when that happens, the two inputs are essentially identical with no edge to either source. So I view my setup as about equally paired. When a change in mastering is made between sources it’s clearly heard. When they’re the same mastering (essentially) there’s no diff. it’s not scientific but close enough for me.
Well I sincerely thank you for this highly relevant data point. I couldn’t care less if you have the same equipment as me, that wouldn’t make me put more or less stock into your comparison. Even if we had identical equipment, we might or might not be listening for the same things, have the same taste, or even the same hearing acuity. It’s all just feedback to take into account to make a calculated decision and ultimately listen for ourselves.
I'm talking about comparing digital sources to analog LPs. It's non-sensical to me, in the sense you have no way to determine parity between what's playing those sources. We could listen to the same things you did using my analog and my digital front ends, and the TP LPs might very well just totally smoke all the digital sources in every way. Whether or not the LPs were cut from digital files doesn't matter. I think trying to compare analog LPs to digital sources, in order to generalize some assessment about relative quality is nonsense. These comparisons only apply to your specific system and might have no relevance to what others are listening to.
Ah! Another thing. I’m really mainly listening for differences in EQ and mastering choices. Those would be easily apparent regardless of source (like how the SHMCD was very midrange and brittle sounding). In this case, the hi res digital didn’t have limiting applied, and a very similar EQ signature to the TP. over in the RHF thread, for Ole, I found the digital version EQ being preferential to the new cut. It wasn’t really about resolution or anything, just EQ and limiting. I think those are objective enough regardless of source? edit- source or quality/expense of the equipment?
My fear here is that with everything being purely subjective and relative, (because of course it is), how could anyone comment on anything, ever? If we take that concept to its logical conclusion, we’d all just have to stop discussing sound quality entirely, even among analog sources (maybe someone’s warmer original pressing sounds worse on a warmer analog front end and thus any opinion that the OP sounds better is irrelevant)? I’m not arguing or saying you’re absolutely wrong, just playing it out in my mind here.
Just look at the equipment list in this profile! That should give you enough information to know what he is hearing! (I kid, I kid )
And you are welcome to, but I stand by my position on it. In the 80s I worked for a Linn/Naim dealer aka the US Rega importer. At the time Linn made a record they recorded to analog tape and digital simultaneously, as a demo to compare. The LP was cut with one side AAA and the other side cut from the digital source. Even that had problems, IMO. You can't really compare. In general, I prefer playing analog recordings on my analog front end. Sometimes I buy analog LPs that were recorded digitally. Usually that's because I really like the albums and think they sound better than streaming them on my digital front end.
Changing topics to McLean ACTION! I finally bought when it dropped to $20ish on Amazon. Wow what a great release! I’m a sucker for vibes. And the mid60s RVG recording approach (drums sound so great). amazing stereo spread, great depth. Fun music and session. how did they hold on this one for all these years!!? This is top tier McLean/Hutch
All this just contributes to my ugradetitis and makes me want to REALLY hear what a slick analog front end can do because my mid tier **** isn’t head and shoulders above well done digital.
Just received both the Sonny Rollins US LP Box and the US double CD... Tried to search, but thinking I am in a dumb state today because I could not find an answer - what is the relationship between the digital ( Hires at the streaming services, US CD, Japan UHQCD, possibly upcoming Japan SACD) and the LP version? what is made from what? Thnx in advance!
I believe that when Kevin Gray cuts the lacquers from master tapes, UMG asks that he also makes a high-res digital transfer. I'm pretty sure Joe told me that years ago.
Thanks for this. I always appreciate thoughtful posts when people compare the versions they have. Very helpful.
Well, I'm at the end of a reasonably lucrative software engineering career, and never had kids to raise or put through college. My only debt now is a couple years left on a mortgage: bikes, hifi and records are something I can afford to buy with cash now. I've really only been able to step up my game on hifi components in the last 10 years. This is also why I don't have a Porsche GT3 RS sitting in my driveway for fun, or even a Macan instead of my Outback. I've been where many others are, forced to be judicious about hifi gear and record purchases for decades. Not trying to make anyone feel bad about where they are, but now I get to enjoy the fruits of my labor. I honestly worked very hard for it, and mean to enjoy what time I have left (I turn 66 in a few months). Others here will get to that point too.
Thnx - so digital versions are a straight transfer from the tapes with no mastering, I assume. I read somewhere that Japan versions are always mastered for what it is believed to be a different taste in sound on that part of the world; assume it will also be the case for this release...
No, I don't know what Kevin does. All I know is that when he and Joe master tapes for the Tone Poet series UMG wants digital versions too, or so I've been told. My personal guess is they are just straight transfers.
I've made my way through a first listen of the Night at VV set. Think I'll play some of it again after my wife gets home from work, and we do our regular Friday night 'Music Night' with Brahms (the dog, and maybe the composer too).
No - it depends on the digital version you’re talking about, but with the BN85 UHQCDs, for example, my understanding is that they are Kevin Gray’s exact mastering fed into his digital recorder at the same time he cuts to lathe, which is then pressed to CD (the few I have on both CD and vinyl sounded extremely similar to me when playing both simultaneously and switching back and forth on my amp while doing rough volume matching). My understanding is that Kevin Gray is generally pretty light with his use of EQ, but I’ve never heard him say his mastering was a “straight transfer” from the tapes with no EQ at all.
