Some fans believe that all of Meisner's vocals and bass parts were not all erased. I had read that the album was finished and Meisner quit because he was not allowed in on the mixing. The story is in either in John Einarson's Desperados or the Furay/Buffalo Springfield book. Listen closely to the high harmonies and you'll hear another voice up there with George Grantham, sounds like Meisner in a couple of places to me. It's also said that the cover art was altered to remove Randy and add Messina's dog Jasper.ug-:
The dog is beyond dispute. That used to be Randy. Here is what Richie said in his autobiography, Pickin Up The Pieces: I think it's entirely possible that Randy is present vocally because they probably sang some of those vocals into one mic, and they didn't intend to re-do perfectly good vocals. The bass parts could easily be removed of course, but we'll probably never know for sure.
Apparently it's not only the audience that can't be sure. In Desperados, Einarson quotes George Grantham saying that he's sure some of Meisner's vocals are still on PUTP, he's just can't remember which tracks. An interesting album in so many ways, it's in my top 5 Poco albums for sure!
Okay, my totally irrelevant, whining, contribution about the first Poco album... After having followed the Springfield and watched them play, I (and the other 14 fans) were devastated. After waiting what seemed an eternity...with mostly no news...Neil and Steve had shown up with their new directions/albums. Okay, cool. So where's Ritchie? Ritchie and Jim had been gigging and from what I could tell, they were probably going to come out with the coolest stuff of the three (Steve-Neil-Ritchie). Steve and Neil's stuff still hadn't gone into the stratosphere anywhere yet, so all of them were still just a hair above unknown ..except to us goofy fans. The first thing one could get hands on was the "My Kind Of Love" 45. Which I bought the day it came out. I thought it was a great start. Even had a funky stereo mix on the 45. And..it was almost a rocker..sort of. Okay, can't wait for the Poco album. My impression of Ritchie from watching him play with the Springfield on things like "Leave" etc was that he was one hellofa rock singer. Great range. Great power. Fascinating to watch him bounce all around the stage....especially that backward thing he'd do a lot. Very electric. So I'm listening to "My Kind of Love", expecting that there's going to be this incredible album on the way that will trump anything he's been involved with before. A few weeks later, the record store calls to tell me that the first Poco album has arrived. I drove over, ran it home, threw it on, and....was shocked!! Dismally disappointed. Crushed. Aghast. I listened to the whole thing. Then listened again. What-the-heck-is-this?????? I considered it a bomb. I couldn't get into it at all. I liked 'Calico Lady" a bit...but where the hell did "My Kind of Love" go? It wasn't even on the album. I'm holding the 45 in my hand. Why isn't it on the album? Oh....guess it wouldn't really fit against all....all...this. I was so bummed. Ritchie and Jim had decided to carve out a major pigeon-hole of a niche. And I couldn't relate to it at all. I could've talked to the other 13 Poco fans that existed in the world that summer, but where would that get me. Oh, I was so disappointed with the first album. I went to see the guys play. Now that I knew what was up, I listened to see if the songs would grab me hearing them live. Nope. Great party atmosphere, but that's all that was registering to me. These are all hand-clapping party songs. But they don't move me. Next year, when the second album came out, I kept my fingers crossed that the guys would return to something mainstream that I could relate to (selfish fan that I am of course). Nope. I was sitting with Ritchie for a couple of hours at one point in 1969 or 1970 and I told him bluntly that I thought he was one of the greatest unknown POP/Rock singers in pop history and that I missed the way he "was" on things like "Hung upside Down" or "Leave" or "Pay the Price" or the way he moved on Mr Soul...basically saying that I figured the world was being cheated out of seeing a side of Ritchie that had only been glimpsed if you were sitting in the audience watching the Springfield. I was basically telling him that I thought Poco wasn't showing him at his best. (Selfish fan that I am of course). I really said all that and he just sat there for a minute. He could've said "I'm outta here", but instead he said, "that whole thing was hard...but it was the best two years of my life". This conversation was way back there, but it stuck with me. I've told Ritchie basically the same thing every five or six years since then. I saw Ritchie the pop rocker, but the road into Poco led to an entirely different place from which he never really returned. But..who am I to criticize, right? Anyway, I couldn't get into that first Poco album. Or the next 12 or 20 or whatever it was. The material is often called groundbreaking. In fact, Poco was just doing what several other guys were also doing around La that first year...although Rusty was a better steel player than the other bands had. We were getting immersed by the twangy-country rock thing in 1968-69. It was sort of the cool alternative to Cream there for a minute till they split up too. So I mostly didn't like Poco's first album because I didn't hear Ritchie doing the range of what I had seen him do with my own eyes...and even now, I think the world is just never going to see what this guy was capable of in the broader musical sense way outside Poco's niche. Which, of course is nobody's problem except mine.
Love Poco, love this album. I rank it at #4 in their catalog. Still gets 5 stars. For those interested: 1. Cantamos 2. Legend 3. Head Over Heels 4. Pickin' Up The Pieces
Wow, I never thought about it this way. The vocals you're referring to were on Stills or Young songs. On Richie's own songs in Buffalo Springfield he didn't rock out with his vocals. He really only lays it out on "Short Changed". Otherwise, I think his songs were generally better than his Buffalo Springfield songs, and his vocals were better than the vocals on his own songs in Buffalo Springfield. Were you not expecting Poco to be country rock? Or did you expect them to be a heavier type of country rock (Burritos, Gene Clark, for example)? Richie isn't a heavy kind of guy. However, from 1969 through 1974, his songs DID gain more depth and more rock. I mean, "And Settlin' Down" is simply fantastic. And has he ever stretched himself more on any song than "Let's Dance Tonight"? I don't think Poco by itself was groundbreaking. I think they were part of a group of artists that pushed rock and country together. I think Poco was different in the respect that their vocals were outstanding, Messina (and Paul Cotton) were better guitarists than most of the other bands (possibly except Clarence White), and as you mention, they had Rusty. Oh well, to each his own. It's pretty cool that you talked to Richie and told him all of that stuff. Constructive criticism never hurts.
Yeah, I was expecting something way more mainstream. Before that first Poco album came out, the only reference ANY of us had to the way Ritchie sounded and moved was via the shows and the three Springfield albums. I mean that was it. So the entire perception of him for three straight years was of this rocker guy....an incredible rock/pop singer and performer...who DID happen to do TWO off-the-beaten-path songs along that period (Kind Woman/Child's Claim To Fame)... but those seemed like exceptions. At shows, they hardly ever did "Child's Claim" and never did Kind Woman, at least when I would see them. While we all knew that Ritchie was singing Neil and Steve's songs, these were in the days of bands as a separate thing. You didn't much delineate so much who wrote the song compared to the fact that the band was playing and plowing all of us back into our seats with the collective wow factor. With nothing as a warning and only the previous perception to go on, the first Poco album was a real shocker for me....and not in a good way. My first thought AFTER the first album was "okay, this might be a one off thing...maybe even a joke....Jim will get them back on track because after all, Jim is firmly planted in pop music due in no small part to the massive amounts of engineering he was doing all over L.A with ...well everybody". I figured no way was he locked into this as a permanent Poco-image. I further thought it was a one-off experiement since I had SEEN Ritchie with pop stuff.... I figured okay, there are two guys, Jim and Ritchie, who have this massive pop/rock experience....they'll get back on track. It never happened. My problem, not anyone elses. But it always surprised me. In later years, when Ritchie added b3 players and more rock oriented players here and there, the problem didn't go away in my eyes. By then, he had spent so many years writing alone or with people not up to the caliber of people he had worked with at 23 years old (hungry people of equal or far greater talent than he) he was no longer under the gun with outside input...he was really n longer pushing himself. The rut never went away. In my opinion...my problem. Anyway...hearing Ritchie and Jim on that first Poco album that first summer day was a real shocker. It would've been like if Jimi Hendrix had, in the summer of 1968-69 (before he was quite so known) suddenly putting on a Hank Williams shirt that summer, traded in his Strat for a Gibson acoustic, adding a pedal steel player and four guys who could sing harmonies higher than a dog can hear....and then releasing 30+ years of albums in theat vein ...never remotely returning to the Jimi Hendrix of 1967...in sound..or style...or look...or anything. There would have been an entire element of Hendrix that you couldn't explain to anyone who hadn't seen him earlier. It would forever be, oh yeah, Hendrix, that country guy who wore funny shirts in the 70's.
I see where you're coming from. I got into Poco in 1988. I already knew what they were about because someone told me. I also had the Buffalo Springfield albums, but it was all musical treasure hunting. I found out that two members of Buffalo Springfield formed a group called "Poco" and I was curious so I asked someone who was a long time fan and he recommended the first two albums and I loved them. My point is that I had few preconceptions because it was all new to me. It's funny that you see "A Child's Claim To Fame" and "Kind Woman" as aberrations, when they were exactly the direction that Richie wanted to pursue. His other Springfield songs didn't give much indication either way. "My Kind Of Love" was a pop/rock song but it wasn't released but they played it live. "Good Time Boy" and "Nobody's Fool" were sung by Dewey and really weren't Richie's sound. "Sad Memory" is a slow sad ballad. "Merry-Go-Round" is light pop. With that output, I imagine he might have been expected to do almost anything. But Poco actually DID move into more of a rock sound with almost each new release. Their attempts to be more commercial meant more rock and less country. I think that Paul, Tim and Rusty were good foils for Richie, particularly as they improved as writers. By the time Richie left, the other guys were able to fairly easily carry on. Ultimately, by 1975 they were putting out better music than Richie. I think SHF motivated Richie to be at his best, but when Richie finally went solo and didn't have other talented writers around, his music suffered. I'd like to know more about Jimmy's decision to join Kenny Loggins. My understanding is that he and Richie were having musical differences, but listening to Loggins & Messina doesn't make those differences obvious. "Nobody But You" would've been a perfect Poco song. Now that I think about it, perhaps your hope that Jim would move Richie in a different direction have some basis in reality. After all, Jim DID have to leave the band for musical reasons.
I don't know Jimmys reasons for leaving, but he did a very classy thing. He stayed and taught Paul Cotton his parts. The first time I saw Poco it was with Messina and Cotton both on stage. Paul was in the back and didn't sing much. I think Richie had a vision of what he wanted Poco to be. However he found out that country and rock doesn't equal to mass appeal. Cotton took them in a more rock direction with his style of playing. Now talk about an great songwriter, I can't think of a bad Poco Paul Cotton song. And yes, the other three, Cotton, Young and Schmit did a heck of a job without Furay. Seven is OK. IMHO, Cantamos is a perfect example of country rock. Rock beat, country instruments everywhere. That first album wasn't meant to be Buffalo Springfield Mach 2. I loved BS, but Poco was just one of the many offshoots. For some reason I never really considered Messina as a member of BS. Last Time Around is by far my least favorite album. It sounds like a various artist record. Buffalo SpringfieldAgain.......does it get much better than that one.
I thought that PUTP was a logical extension of "Kind Woman" at the time and I still feel that way. Different strokes for different folks and all that but I simply don't understand how anyone could have been surprised at PUTP.
Here is what Messina said in the booklet for The Forgotten Trail: Messina did a great job teaching Paul because the shows they did in the immediate aftermath of Messina's departure sound pretty much the way they always sounded. It seems that Cotton played it straight. After they did From The Inside, Cotton started to play in his own style.
I'm not so sure about studio versions of C'Mon and A Man Like Me. It's very possible as they started a third studio album but did Deliverin' instead. Who knows how far they got. Perhaps there's a studio cut of Hear That Music too. That'd be great if there was. There also exists: the outtakes from the NYC and Boston shows that made up Deliverin'. The 1970 Atlanta Pop Festival set. The 1971 Los Angeles show from KMET (You Are The One on Forgotten Trail is from this) that ended up being booted..ahem...cough. And there is a November 2, 1973 show recorded by King Biscuit Flower Hour @ Orrie De Nooyer Auditorium, Farleigh Dickerson University, Madison, NJ. The outtakes from the 3 shows that make up the 1976 Epic "Live" album from the tour in support of Cantamos. And there's always studio outtakes from the albums which haven't seen the light of day.
In Richie's book he said they recorded "C'Mon" and "A Man Like Me" with Richie Polodor after From The Inside, acknowledging that they had already been included on Deliverin'. He said "Poco never sounded better in the studio than we did on those recordings" but that Columbia refused to release the single and also prohibited further work with Polodor, whom Richie thought was the ideal producer for Poco (particularly after the difficult Steve Cropper experience). I never understood why they were recording prior to the tour that resulted in Deliverin'. Maybe Jimmy hadn't told them at that point and they thought they WERE recording the third album. They even recorded Jimmy's song, "Lullaby In September", which seems unlikely if they knew he was leaving. Maybe he told them during the sessions, then they decided to do the live album.
Also there is the Central Park show. The Schaeffer Music Festival. This one includes Richie Furay. It has songs through the A Good Feeling To Know album. In fact mostly from that album and From The Inside. Country Bump, the first one Pool Of Tears mentioned and this one and King Biscuit all have fair sound quality. They were all recorded for broadcast. All other Poco bootlegs are like most other bootlegs..........they are horrible.
If you have not, check out Illinois Speed Press. I love their two albums, and Paul Cotton was/is a major talent. Cotton first recorded the song Bad Weather with the ISP. The more I listen to Poco's debut, the more I like it. I've listened to it a lot lately, thanks to this thread.
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. There is a bunch of good stuff around from the 71-73 era, including the shows you mentioned. A fine recording from Yellow Springs, OH is out there. A good recording from Hofstra University is around. Thats just off the top of my head. We'll be moving on to Poco (oranges) tonight.
Poco Poco May 6, 1970 Epic Records Side One Hurry Up (Furay) You Better Think Twice (Messina) Honky Tonk Downstairs (Frazier) Keep on Believin' (Furay, Schmit) Anyway Bye Bye (Furay) Side Two Don't Let It Pass By (Furay) Nobody's Fool/El Tonto de Nadie, Regresa (Furay, Grantham, Messina, Schmit, Young) Is Poco’s second album their most controversial? Yep, and the explanation takes over 18 minutes. More on that later. Jim Messina is still with the group and Timothy B. Schmidt is now a full member. Poco was considered a new start by the band due to the modest sales of Pickin’ Up The Pieces and the immediate change in their initial lineup. There were two basic goals: 1) Less country; and 2) Show we can rock with the best of them. Both goals were partially achieved. The album starts with “Hurry Up”, one of Furay’s most accomplished songs up to this point. “Hurry Up” is immediately more of a “pop” song than anything on Pickin’ Up The Pieces. It also rocks during the instrumental section with Messina laying down one of his few distorted guitar solos. Also notable is that Rusty’s contribution is solely the pedal steel guitar as organ. It’s easily the distinguishing sound on the song. Messina’s “You Better Think Twice” is an almost perfect slice of country rock pop. Rarely has Messina been so concise in his writing (Loggins & Messina’s “Nobody But You” is similar). The guitar playing is fantastic and further proof that Messina was clearly a gifted guitarist. The interplay with Rusty’s pedal steel shows even further growth with their arrangements. Next up is “Honky Tonk Downstairs”, a cover of a song made popular by George Jones, and easily the most country song the group has done thus far. So much for less country. It’s never been a favorite of mine, but it’s enjoyable and performed well. Messina and Young shine as usual. “Keep On Believin’” is an up-tempo song that is just slightly less country than usual. It’s an enthusiastic performance that went over big in concert. Messina and Young trade solos to excellent effect. “Anyway Bye Bye” is another career high point for Richie. It’s easily on par with “Kind Woman”. It’s a sad, forlorn, yet melodic ballad. Side two starts with another top tier Richie song, “Don’t Let It Pass By”. It is similar in feel to “Anyway Bye Bye”. However, this short song is overwhelmed by what follows. Surprisingly a more laid back and slightly funky version of “Nobody’s Fool” is reprised from the last album. And it then segues into a long jam which finishes the album. Most fans consider “El Tonto de Nadie, Regresa” ("Nobody’s Fool" in Spanish, btw) to be a career mistake. I tend to agree. Up to this point, Poco was a more sophisticated album that showed growth and diversity. Following through with a similar side two should’ve been a no-brainer. The “excuse” for “El Tonto de Nadie, Regresa” was that a lot of bands were doing long songs on their albums and Poco wanted to be hip and show they could do the same. That may very well have been the reasoning, but I can’t think of anyone outside of Prog doing songs this long except in concert or live albums. My opinion is that this song tanked the album and dealt another blow to Poco’s fledgling career. However, “El Tonto de Nadie, Regresa” is far from bad. In fact, it’s a well-arrange long piece that is played well throughout and even holds interest throughout. I had never considered that they weren’t improvising until I heard the song performed live (which they did often) almost note for note. “El Tonto de Nadie, Regresa” is actually a real instrumental composition. Between Messina and Young’s playing in multiple styles and multiple sounds, there is a lot to listen to, and somehow it stays interesting, but… not necessarily for repeated listening. And that’s the main problem, and why including the track was ultimately a mistake despite it’s musical merits. Ultimately, Poco is more or less considered half of a really good album. Beyond that, it’s even forgotten due to it’s position between Pickin’ Up The Pieces and Deliverin’. The group was doing a lot of good music around this time, it’s too bad more it didn’t make this album 3.5 stars overall (4.5 for the first six songs).
I know and I agree I was referring to the Epic era though I'd sure love to have expanded versions of Deliverin' and Live. They so good that they end too soon. And there's something about the 4 man lineup Seven/Cantamos era that I enjoy. It's just good to listen to.
Along with PUTP and Deliverin' I grew up with this album at a young age...5! I have the Epic cd of this and there's something I noticed...Anyway Bye Bye on the cd sounds different than on the Forgotten Trail. The Epic cd has piano in the mix...the Forgotten Trail doesn't. I know some songs on Trail were remixed but the credits don't list ABB as a remix. I'll have to check my Yellow Epic vinyl to see if it's the same as the Epic cd.
A great album- I give it 4.5/5.0... I like the instrumental, though like most I do wish they had put three good songs in its place. A small step down from their debut, which I consider 5.0/5.0. My favorite songs from POCO- Hurry Up-funky guitar solo, perfect album opener. You Better Think Twice- more great drumming from George Grantham. Love the guitar solo and lyrics..."You know in time, my melody will haunt you." Keep On Believin'- what a great hook. Don't Let It Pass By- Yes, Poco is better than the Eagles. Here is 2:33 that shows you why.
Wow. What a post. That is just amazing that you saw so many Springfield shows. I've never heard any Poco save for the hits but I agree that Ritchie's vocals on Neil's songs are some of the best pop/rock vocals ever.
Actually, it is a jam, not an instrumental as I called it, there are a few vocals at the very end. (Even though I like it, I admit I have not listened to all of the jam in a long time until right now, forgot about the end vocals.)
The vocals come back at the end but there is no escaping that the "Nobody's Fool" part of the track exists solely as an excuse for the jam. I sometimes listen to my own comp. Its not chronologically correct, but its the Messina version of the group. The comp would've been an excellent second album. Hurry Up You Better Think Twice Honky Tonk Downstairs Keep on Believin' Anyway Bye Bye Don't Let It Pass By I Guess You Made It Hard Times Last Enchilada #3 My Kind Of Love Lullaby In September
