Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" CD -- which version to get?

That discounts a whole lot of jazz recordings, just about anything on Blue Note or Capitol. The original engineer says in an interview that the recordings were intentionally done "dry" with the forethought that reverb would be added later. Of course that can be over done, my own feeling is the Contemporary studio recordings sound better with some judicious reverb than dry.

 

Wow, It sounds almost undetectable if recording session reverb is on there, I always figured that was just the instruments mic to mic leak, the off main picking up just a bit of Sonny's sax, giving that slight echo effect. If the room can supply a nice natural acoustic, I'm all for the no reverb school of thought, I don't know if the Contemporary studio was such a room.

 

I tend to agree, Ornette at town Hall or Lee Konitz Motion would'nt be possible with piano. For the longest time I had a piano requisite for jazz recordings, now I think I might like the trio format better.

 

That's what I thought, the room sounds dead. So you added a little reverb to your SONNY ROLLINS & THE CONTEMPORARY LEADERS DCC disc?

 

I have the Mofi, the first XRCD, boxset, OJC, etc. but I prefer the Doug Sax AP SACD. Sounds great, especially on phones.

 

I did a fun shoot out (in the old West...) last night with WAY OUT WEST, doing volume matched comparisons of the following versions:

1. Steve and Kevin's 45 rpm LP pressing
2. MFSL silver disc
3. Victor Japan "VDJ-" (yellow spine) CD - the one with the alternate cover photo

I was prompted to do this by the arrival of the MFSL silver disc, which I had recently ordered at forum member J.A.W.'s recommendation. I've had the 45 rpm LP for some time but with the backlog of stuff to listen to hadn't sat down with it in some time.

I have listed them above in my order of preference (best to least good).

Simply put the 45 rpm vinyl is "the" way to hear this recording, by far the most natural presentation - tonality of the instruments is just right, midrange wonderfully alive and present without being obnoxiously forward, silky smooth on top, and huge slam (but controlled) in the bass. I had forgotten how great this pressing was.

One thing that just amazed me was the back to front depth was by far the most accurate on the vinyl. For example, people who know this recording well know that at the start of the first track ("I'm an Old Cowhand"), it sounds like Sonny either intentionally or unintentionally stood back a little from the mic, so his sax starts out quieter in the L channel and then comes up after a bar or two. This was most noticeable (in a good way) on the 45 rpm - you really got the sense of the sax moving up in space - close your eyes and there he is moving toward the mic - whereas on all of the digital versions, the sax just goes from quieter to louder, basically like someone turning up a fader - without really conveying the fact that Sonny moved in space.

There were tons of similar moments - particularly with transient sounds (low bass notes, sax pops, the sound of Manne's hi hat moving at the intro of "I'm an Old Cowhand") - all those little details that tell us we're there (even though we're not). All are there if you listen carefully to the digital versions, but they aren't as faithfully reproduced, and you can hear them without having to strain on the vinyl - they become an integrated part of the music rather than background "artifacts." Really fascinating.

Of the 2 digital versions I would have to agree with J.A.W. (Hans) who has told me on several occasions that the MFSL is the best. It is, I feel, a bit better than the old VDJ Japan CD - though it isn't a total trouncing and for those who have the VDJ you can feel confident you have a fine sounding CD. The thing that really sets the MFSL apart - immediately obvious, I'm confident anyone with a halfway decent system would notice right away - is the much more convincing dynamic range and transients than the VDJ disc, which is tonally very similar (almost identical) to the MFSL. I actually find is the one failing of the "VDJ-" discs in general - they have a fantastic tonality, but for whatever reason - A-D converters used or whatever - they are a bit undynamic, and do not convey transients very realistically. I think this is why some find these discs to be "dull" sounding - it's not a tonality thing, it's the lack of soft/loud/fast/slow contrasts - everything tends to sound more or less on an even plane (in space, time, and volume). It's one thing to be "laid back" but you don't want to miss out on dynamics and drama that should be there.

The MFSL came very close to matching the 45 rpm vinyl on transients, like when Ray Brown forcefully hits low bass notes or Shelly Manne raps his snare - but didn't quite get there. Finally, both redbook CDs imparted some of the classic digital "hardness" (upper midrange esp - Sonny's tenor sounded just a tad bit strident when he blew harder whereas that never happened on the vinyl) and loss of detail in things like cymbal decay (and the slight bit of reverb on Sonny's tenor was even slighter in digital format - something was missing in the trail).

Anyway this was fun for many reasons - none of the versions was less than excellent, the music is of course timeless and staggeringly great, and it's such a neat recording for making such comparisons, with all the space and separation between the instruments, each played by a master of the craft. Heavenly.

Thank you Steve and Kevin.

BTW I won't be getting rid of my "VDJ-" disc because it has a bonus track (alternate take of "I'm an Old Cowhand") that wasn't included on either the vinyl or the MFSL disc. Finally if you're keeping score the U.S. Original Jazz Classics CD, which is decent sounding, also has alternate takes of 2 of the other tracks - so if you're a Rollins nut you need that too.

 

Interesting.
On my system, the MFSL has softer transient and less guts comparing with the VDJ.

 

I have a few of these mentioned....but my fav for yrs now has been the Contemporary release using JVC's K2 h/w tweaked for 192/24 on DVDA 2ch only. I wish I had picked up a few more of these remasters at the time, cause they all quickly went OOP.

 

I wish someone could compare the 45rpm of Way Out West and Pepper meets the... with the japanese SHM-SACDs.
Hoffman said the 45rpms was cut from the session reels and that tapes only has a touch of reverb. That's how I hear these two SHM-SACDs. I think Universal Japan maybe has got a good copy of those tapes.

 

Well I find for this type of comparison precise volume matching is very important. Beyond that, I suppose it may just be down to system differences. We have VERY different systems based on reviewing your profile - our speakers especially are for example fundamentally different designs.

Regardless, it was really quite a noticeable difference on my system. But again both discs are nice IMHO.

 

+1 for the MFSL, for me the preferred version now.

 

I agree, fabulous sound quality. And slightly superior to the JVC XRCD which is also essential because of the bonus tracks.

 

There is a lot of good information in this thread.

 

Sonny Rollins is a difficult guy to pin down
He moves around a lot
Not always on mic
Mr Du Nanns recordings are pristine for the period,he used a passive mixer and close technique that did not distort
He also used pre emphasis to reduce tape noise,one of the first.
I like a little verb,stereo more than mono
For a man that disliked modern jazz, his recordings are a Beacon imho.

 

Mke that +2

Can't believe I haven't posted on this thread before now.

 

+1 for the VDJ.

I came across a near mint copy for 3 Euros ($5). Sounds awesome.

 

The exact same thing on my system. The MFSL was too soft in an unusual way that I had never heard before or since. I just couldn't make it sound as good (staging and definition) as the VDJ no matter how loud I cranked it.

 

3 euros = about $3.75 at today's exchange rate, not $5.

 

As I said earlier I prefer the MFSL by a large margin. Didn't like the VDJ. Funny how people's tastes differ

DrJ's description above hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned; what he says about the VDJ is exactly why I generally don't like VDJs compared to, for instance, OJCs and Yoshida-mastered XRCDs with material owned by Fantasy (now Concord):

 

Not entirely unheard of from my experience Hans. Perhaps I have a good sounding VDJ and you have a good sounding MFSL.

A brief, yet hilarious. story of a similar situation to fully explain. A fellow Forum member brought over 2 copies of the MFSL Elvis Presley That's The Way It Is (UD Japan) and gave me his scratched up copy as a gift. We compared them and even though they both had the exact same matrix #'s, they sound nothing alike. The scratched up copy blew the mint copy completely out of the water sonically.

 

I have the Analogue Productions LP it sounds amazing to my ears one of the best sounding vinyls I own.