Sinatra / Capitol Sound & Photo Quality: "Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!!" - 1961

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Sep 20, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Page 7 of 15
  1. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    Listening to the samples the D2 Mono has the edge, with the stereo samples the D2 12:00 stereo does sound nice but having just bought all the Capitol Alan Dell vinyl this week, and having listened to "Sinatra's Swingin' Session" quite a lot and really enjoying it I think my judgement is slightly clouded in this regard and biased towards the Dell, so I'll take a break from this album and come back to the samples in a few days.
     
    hodgo, Sep 30, 2010
    #151
  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    The only stereo copy that I thought was truly "bad" was the MFSL, which surprised me because that set has been scoring pretty well as we've marched through all these albums.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Sep 30, 2010
    #152
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    What, Matt, you don't like +15 at 10K? What are you, deaf?
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 30, 2010
    #153
    McLover likes this.
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    No, I hear fine aside from this ringing in my ears.

    Seriously, the MFSL box has been trash talked a bit over the years, but when we actually run it along with other versions, it has held up very well on most titles, but on this particular one....oof.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Sep 30, 2010
    #154
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Anybody know who JAS or RJL might be? Their initials have turned up in Sinatra deadwax of late, and I hate being unable to actually give them credit. Both would be mid-1970s pressings.
     
    MLutthans, Sep 30, 2010
    #155
  6. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    Yeah I'd go with that Matt, I have a needle drop of the "Swingin' Session" MFSL LP at both 16 & 24 bit rates and I don't like it at all, it's quite harsh and not a pleasant listen, I preferred the CD version from the 21 CD UK Set until I got the Dell Vinyl and that slays the MFSL, with the Dell being much warmer and natural sounding.
     
    hodgo, Sep 30, 2010
    #156
  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Yes, I can verify my MoFi copy (a test pressing) sounds like that too. Also a "drop" I have of a copy from an actual box set LP - same thing. The cymbals seem to end up louder than Frank...

    Stereo pressings sourced from the earliest cuts are very common in my experience, and not just on 9 o'clock black/rainbow label copies. My stereo DELUXE SET version (an early issue, with 12 o'clock black/rainbow labels) is D2/D1. So, that's at the least thru 1967 or so.

    My favorite version is the stereo D2 - in the case of the samples, Matt's 12 o'clock copy. I have a few copies with the same cut, and while they're obviously all pretty similar sounding, like Blackie mentioned above, some are still a little better than others. That goes for any record though...

    The mono is OK, but I almost never reach for it over the vintage stereo LP.
     
    MMM, Sep 30, 2010
    #157
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    CD comparisons are now available to the contributors. (Sorry I can't share with the public, but if the contributors share their thoughts, we can compile some good info here.) My comments regarding the three CD masterings (Walsh remix 1987, Norberg remix 1998, UK box set using original mix) are:


    To my ears, the Walsh CD is a very pleasant listen on its own terms, but it is pretty strong revisionism: Very nice, but a unique experience compared to every single stereo issue. I would describe it as soft, pillowy, pleasant, and inviting, but I would also describe it as having a very smeary stereo image and a top end that -- ironically, since it is otherwise quite untrue to the original -- is just as conservative as it was on the original LPs, which are the antithesis of bright.

    The UK box set CD is a very clean, crisp transfer of the original mix. The treble is much clearer than on other releases, but I do not consider it bright. The MFSL is bright; this CD has full treble. I know that it’s a fine line, but to my ears, this one has hi-hats and brass that sound present and life-like, while the MFSL has hi-hats and brass that (figuratively) peel the paint. It also has a W-I-D-E stereo image that is true to the recording methods used, while the Walsh (primarily, I think, through use of echo chambers) severely narrows the stereo image. It also has a mildly-razor-like vocal tone (similar to what I heard on the box set’s CLOSE TO YOU CD), but the Walsh has a bit of that, too. It’s mildly bothersome, but I can live with it.


    Which is better? That’s personal choice, of course. The Walsh is very good but masks some of the things that some people may view as “faults” in the original recording, while the UK 1998 disc flies its wide-stereo freak flag high and proud.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 1, 2010
    #158
  9. salleno

    salleno Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. Cal.
    I have or have had most of the CD versions. I actually like both the Walsh and the UK 21 CD Set version. I never liked the Norbergs. Which one I play depends on my mood or on what's closer.
     
    salleno, Oct 1, 2010
    #159
  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I can totally see (hear?) where that would be the case.

    Also, for what it's worth, I've somewhat altered my view on the three SM-series LP samples. Here's what I changed:

    "The SM albums are a mixed bag. I thought Steve’s H17 was about right, while the H16 and H19 were a little dull sounding. YMMV."

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 1, 2010
    #160
  11. apileocole

    apileocole Lush Life Gort

    Location:
    San Luis Obispo California
    Wonderful thread, I enjoyed the photo "investigation." :)

    Listened to the samples (with Grado 325i 'phones). As usual I listened first then read the comments. Opinions:

    Monos: My impressions line up with Matt's although in this case I definitely prefer the first sample, the UK pressing. From cymbals to Frank to bass it's best of this lot IMH.

    Stereo LPs: sample 2 is my fav, closely followed by #1. The rest are good with the MFSL, with its unnaturally boosted mid-treble, being decidedly the worst pick of the lot.

    CDs (all stereo natch): The 1998 UK is the clear winner, with a satisfying vitality and resolution making for an engaging listen. Larry Walsh's is ok: weaker with clearly mediocre gear, (slack) reverb and narrowing, but doesn't significantly harm the music, maintaining some sense of naturalness. A reasonably involving listen. Norberg's offers a startling but typical drop in resolution in every sense. NR digital reverb and more, all of it just getting in your way.

    Conclusion: The best vintage issues are the best but the 1998 UK (not Norberg) CD is a very solid rival and may be preferable depending on the given LP and CD playback circumstances.
     
    apileocole, Oct 1, 2010
    #161
  12. stevelucille

    stevelucille Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, NY USA
    waa waa waa waa

    Interesting bit at the end of the Norberg CD!

    Which brings up an interesting point. It would seem that the Walsh CD and the Norberg CD both went back to the original 3 tracks and remixed to "improve" the SQ. What a missed opportunity! And while not much is known about the process used in the UK box set, my guess is that they only used the stereo master tape and did a fairly flat transfer. Previous albums Matt has looked at on his Sinatra pages have shown similar results. However usually the Walsh CDs have shown better.

    Somebody just starting to get into the Sinatra Capitol years might find that UK CD box set a pretty good representation of the Capitol LPs. Warts and all.
     
    stevelucille, Oct 1, 2010
    #162
  13. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    I agree with your final thought Steve, I have the 21 CD UK set and it is a wonderful thing to own, there's not really a bad sounding disc in it apart from possibly the first 2 "Songs For Young Lovers" & "Swing Easy", but there's a cheap way around that issue in the form of those albums on the MFP 2 on 1 CD that is available it's also cheap & easy to find, it also happens to be one of the best ways to hear those 2 albums. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Swing-Easy-...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1285934043&sr=1-1
     
    hodgo, Oct 1, 2010
    #163
  14. stevelucille

    stevelucille Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, NY USA
    stevelucille, Oct 1, 2010
    #164
  15. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    +2 :righton:

    What I find especially nice about the UK CD box is: no bonus tracks. (Exception: "The One I Love" on NO ONE CARES, but it fits.) I know there are those who will disagree, but I really enjoy hearing the original albums the way I first heard them many years ago (SQ considerations aside).

    I could do without the 12-track versions of SWING EASY! and SONGS FOR YOUNG LOVERS (which are NOT the original albums), but the UK MFP CD covers those nicely, as Graham mentioned.

    What a shame that these CD releases were never available here in the USA. The British arm of Capitol has truly outdone its American cousin when it comes to digital versions of Sinatra's finest music.
     
    Bob F, Oct 1, 2010
    #165
    McLover likes this.
  16. Ryan

    Ryan That would be telling

    Location:
    New England
    I have 12 o'clock and nine o'clock original stereo (D1/2) LPs. Eager to do a comparison now.
     
    Ryan, Oct 1, 2010
    #166
  17. stevelucille

    stevelucille Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, NY USA
    Beating a dead horse here but...

    It's too bad the people that shut down Matt's Sinatra pages can't see what an opportunity they missed here. People will buy CDs if they think they are getting the best sound. Or an improvement over CDs they already have. I know I've bought CDs based on what I've learned here. It is very tuff to be able to judge sound quality and compare without using direct comparisons. That is one of the things that makes Matt's discussions so interesting. Besides all the great session tidbits Matt digs up!

    I can only guess it might have been different had the current Capitol CD issues not been exposed for what they are.

    Ah well. Excuse me while I go back to dreaming about a Sinatra reissue series like the new AP Nat King Cole SACDs/LPs.
     
    stevelucille, Oct 1, 2010
    #167
    McLover likes this.
  18. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Hi Matt,

    i am surprised to see my contribution marked as "bright". Could it be my new system? (Well Tempered Classic /w Amadeus Upgrade Kit / Denon DL-103M. Whaddaya think about my "September" sample?

    Arne
     
    ArneW, Oct 1, 2010
    #168
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Well, anybody can feel free to chime in here with their thoughts! I just re-listened, and "bright" may be inaccurate. It may be that it is a little lacking in bass, which makes the treble more apparent. I see that the sample you sent is a D2 #3, which I think means that it was the third stamper made from the second mother. (Maybe MMM or W.B. can clarify that for us.) That may have had some effect on things. Regardless, I'm guessing it's a pressing issue more than any sort of hardware issue, but I've been using the same TT for 30 years, so I'm not the expert when it comes to hardware differences.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 1, 2010
    #169
  20. salleno

    salleno Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. Cal.
    :agree:

    It's a great set except for the faulty CD "Come Dance With Me" which has part of the second song missing! :confused: :cry:
     
    salleno, Oct 1, 2010
    #170
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Really? You are the first to mention that, as far as I recall. Can you expound a bit?

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 1, 2010
    #171
  22. salleno

    salleno Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. Cal.
    I'll send you a sample. It starts off briskly, has the first few seconds completely chopped off. :cry:
     
    salleno, Oct 1, 2010
    #172
  23. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Another microphone question

    I listened to the stereo LP again this afternoon (9 o'clock D2 D2).

    Could the string bass be one of the instruments with a spot mic? The bass is so exceptionally loud and clear on Swingin' Session. Or maybe it was just fantastic bass playing technique?









    P.S. Is there a thread that explains the 50's/early 60's Capitol vinyl deadwax? (sorry, I can't find it).
     
    TLMusic, Oct 1, 2010
    #173
  24. apileocole

    apileocole Lush Life Gort

    Location:
    San Luis Obispo California
    Member W.B. knows the ins and outs of the pressings to amazing detail, you might search for his posts with for instance key words like Scranton (the east coast Capitol pressing plant then)... one example:
    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3677297&postcount=41

    Here's another couple
    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=700864&postcount=4 by James Glennon
    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=700927&postcount=6 by W.B.
     
    apileocole, Oct 1, 2010
    #174
  25. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Many thanks!

    Could a specific thread on the Capitol deadwax subject be reasonably warranted?
     
    TLMusic, Oct 1, 2010
    #175
Page 7 of 15
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine