Sinatra Capitol 20 & 24-Bit Masters

Steve,

Are there actually 2 different 3-tracks - 1 flat & dry, and 1 with some "echo/reverb" and EQ - as I think?

MMM

 

Thanks Steve,

More of a mystery to me regarding a couple of things that I'm hearing that don't seem to be coming from Bob on that disc if a "B" 3-track doesn't exist - as I don't know how Bob could do the "widening" on Frank on many songs here, without an isolated vocal track.

 

Steve,

So maybe there's a "B" reel too? (probably in session order)

MMM

 

Steve,

So maybe there's a "B" reel too? (probably in session order)

Let be give you an example off the top of my head of what I'm hearing as to why I believe there's another 3-track that's not flat and dry.

On "Yes Indeed!" When Frank comes in at the beginning and sings "You'll shout" there is echo added behind him . Its character would seem difficult to me to reproduce in a modern remix. But if Bob used a two track, how could he have widened Frank. I don't think "Yes Indeed!" has the widening on Frank (or if it's there I didn't pick up on it). However, echo with about the same character as this example is on at least one or two songs that I listed having that "widening" that Bob likes to do, so that leads me to believe there is another 3-track.

Thanks again,
MMM

 

Yeah, maybe Bob got the exact reverb exactly as on my LP. I guess it's possible, but the sound I'm talking about isn't the normal Capitol echo sound. If you get a chance, listen to an original stereo LP of "Come Swing With Me!" and play "Yes Indeed!" and listen for that sound that I'm (admittedly) grasping for words to explain after the first time Frank sings "You'll shout". After you hear this sound, you'll also notice a similar effect on a few other songs. I've singled out this particular instance as it occurs in a place where there is less band activity, which makes that sound behind Frank stand out all the more. Once you hear it, you should easily pick up this "effect" behind Frank a couple of other times on the album. That sound/effect (IMO) would be hard to duplicate exactly nowadays. Maybe I'm wrong.

MMM

 

I guess we'll never know for sure. What's more important I guess is that this disc sounds poor overall, compared to what it should be.

Thanks again Steve. Much appreciated. I may take you up on the offer for you to answer other questions I may have or think of (some questions may not be suitable for this thread, so if you can, please contact me through private messaging with the proper address to send possible questions to).

MMM

 

On Monday I should be back with some info on Bob Norberg's mastering philosophies (practices), just to state facts that he's put "on the record" (I know you like that phrase Steve!!! - I'm shamelessly copying it).

Again, thanks to all who continue to be interested in this thread and participate, especially Steve.

MMM

 

I am really enjoying all of this information. Very, very interesting! Would you be able to review the 2000 24 bit remastered Concepts box set eventually? I would be interested how it compares to the original vinyl. If you do not have the set, maybe i could provide you with cd-r's. Let me know if you would be interested in doing this - I have heard these 24 bit remasters are better than the 20 bit ones.

 

Chris,

I'm flattered that you want more and more from me and that you care about my opinion. I have no plans on buying the new "Concepts" box. Also, as much as I appreciate your offer to give me CD copies of the the discs, I will decline. Here's why: To the best of my knowledge, the recent individual EOTC discs that came out earlier this year use the new "Concepts" box masters. Maybe I'm wrong. They are 24-bit. For example, does the "Concepts" Come Swing With Me! sound anything like I described the new individual disc on this thread? (I'm not talking about the fiasco I started with regard to what tape were used - just my comments on that disc's sound - I very well may be incorrect in my questioning of what tapes were used; there may only be one 3-track in existence as Steve has stated).

Also, I have the "Classic Sinatra" single CD compilation, 24-bit mastered by Bob Norberg. To the best of my knowledge, this disc uses the same masters as the new "Concepts" box and should sound very similar (some minor EQ may have been performed if the new "Concepts" masters were indeed used here to give better continuity to the sound on this disc). If the handful of tracks here that repeat on the "Concepts" box and the "Classic Sinatra" CD with regard to albums that are 20 instead of 24-bit on the individual Capitol EOTC CD's, are any indication of how those entire albums sound in the new "Concepts" iteration, then I still would not like them.

Another thing to keep in mind. Go back in this thread to where I describe my feelings with regard to using the original vinyl as a reference (the post where I said something to the effect of not wanting to recreate the limitations necessary for 1950's & early 1960's record production). Don't get me wrong, I love vinyl - the average record in my collection (not just Sinatra) definetly sounds better than the average CD in my collection. But just keep in mind what I posted earlier regarding this matter.

Thanks again Chris

MMM

 

Hello all,

Below is some information on Bob Norberg's mastering philosophies & practices. First of all, this info on Bob is not my opinion. I am merely reprinting some of what I've seen in regard to Bob Norberg's mastering. I am lifting this straight from my aforementioned TAS letter, which was completed slightly over a year ago. I had taken comments I had seen regarding this matter on the Capitol Mastering site and put these together in a cohesive & coherent manner. Keep this in mind as there are some comments with regards to dates ("A year ago; recently"; etc.) that were correct (date-wise) then. In reading this now, just understand these references are from about a year ago. Here goes:

In order to try and confirm some of the reasons why I'm hearing what I am on these discs, I have checked and rechecked Capitol Mastering's website for information. Recently I have found the following on their site: To get rid of noise, it is noted that Capitol has Sonic Solutions with "no noise" package, and what seems to be some custom made equipment. Bob Norberg comments: "I developed my own dehissing system, as well as some other sound enhancement processes". Capitol claims tere are two types of audio "restoration". "1. Restore the 'sound' of the original recording - make an accurate copy of the original tape by transferring flat to digital or 2. remaining 'true to the original performance rather than the recording'. Mr. Norberg 'believes it's possible to make an old recording sound as though it was recorded last week. The goal here is to actually eliminate the old sound of the recording and restore the performance. In doing so, some denoising will be required, since tape hiss is common on old recordings and, consequently a distortion of the original performance. (For that matter, mono is a distortion of the original performance although mono is better left as is rather than try to fake stereo)'". Mr. Norberg also describes part of how he performs his job. Mr. Norberg "routinely removes about half of the hiss in the analog domain while transferring into the digital workstation, the other half is removed in the digital domain within the computer. Since each of these dehissing methods has its unique side effects, going halfway with each renders such side effects inaudible". "It's also important not to overdo any of this. Sure, you can end up with a CD that is dead quiet but you don't want to kill the music in the process. It can also be helpful to EQ the (add high frequencies) to bring back a little 'life' that might have been lost in the processing". "Further, solidify the bass and open up the highs. Cranking more bass and highs into the EQ will sound like just that...you cranked up the bass and highs. There are ways to increase the definition so that the notes being played can be heard more clearer and not merely louder". "Listen carefully to the recording and fix any problems: widen the stereo image where necessary: make realistic changes. For example, if you find a vocal is louder than an entire band with a large brass section, it is not realistic". ----- Most, if not all of this information has been available on Capitol Mastering's website for over two years, including the comment about mono & fake stereo. However, in the past there used to be an additional, contradictory comment regarding fake stereo. Sadly this comment is no longer posted. Since I never printed out this statement in the past I can only paraphrase from memory. I wish it still existed on the site to prove this, but I am not making up the following: Mr. Norberg used to have a comment posted that said he does something while mastering that is looked down upon nowadays - fake stereo. Mr. Norberg stated he uses it since the computer does such a good job of it.

(Below is not part of my TAS letter).

Please understand that I honestly believe that Bob has the best intentions with what he does and that he truly feels he's doing the right thing. From what I understand, he's a good guy, if that matters to anyone. As you can tell from my posts in this thread, I don't agree with his ideas and methods.

 

I used to have the Hawthorne, CA Beach Boys set, and in the liner notes, they talked a bit about Bob Norberg, who was responsible for one of the early rarities on the disc. Apparently, he was something of a sound/gadget nut who liked to work with audio devices in his spare time. In a way, it makes one understand why he does all that, er, "fiddling" in his mastering. That "Neat! Look at this new thingie and hear what happens when you do this to that!" attitude he has would be the same thing that makes one believe he/she can "improve" a recording with modern devices.

 

Thanks Matt for your input. I think I read that Bob recorded the Beach Boys album "20/20".

Anyway, in my last post I stated how there at one time on the Capitol Mastering site there was a reference that Bob will use fake stereo since the computer does a job job with it and that I felt it contradited his comment that mono is a distortion of the original event, but it's best to leave it as is rather than try to fake stereo. Perhaps Bob doen't feel these two comments are contradictory. They are contradictory to me, but he may have been thinking of the old "Duophonic" stuff when he commented that it's best to leave mono as is, and considers his brand of fake stereo, which is not as bad as the "Duophonic" stuff from the 60's, to be valid. Obviously, I don't agree with any form of fake stereo.

I have more on Bob Norberg's mastering. The was an article in the March 1999 "Audiomedia" about the remastering of Sinatra's Capitol albums. They interviewed Bob Norberg. The thread is below:


http://audiomedia.com/archive/features/us-0399/us-0399-sinatra/us-0399-sinatra.htm


One section worth highlighting (IMO) from this article follows:

Remastering older material can have its benefits. Norberg explains: "Without the artist and manager being present, I can mix so that it is pleasing to me. I get to set a much more realistic balance between the vocals and the orchestra than were present on the original recordings. Nelson Riddle, Billy May, and other composers did these amazing orchestral arrangements and I like to get those up to where they are audible. Also, I don't like music to just sit there; I like it to grow and build and actually go somewhere. With these arrangements and access to the three-track tapes, I have freedom to do this."

(End of highlight from article)


Perhaps Bob doesn't know the following, which is understandable to me (him not knowing).

The following is quoted from Chuck Granata's "Sessions With Sinatra" The quote from Nelson Riddle may seem out of place in this thread at first, but as you read it you'll realize by the end of the quote how aware Nelson was of writing his arrangements so the resulting recording properly captured what he wanted his arrangements to sound like:

Quote from the book from John Palladino: "Nelson understood recording, so if you told him 'I can't control this...' he would know exactly how to correct it within the orchestration. Nelson had it down pat, so that by the time of the session, it was completely worked out. He would have already made arrangements that considered the technical pitfalls of recording".

Chuck Granata: "In his textbook, the arranger cautions students on the importance of understanding how various instruments will sound in different acoustic settings.

Nelson: "The violin has a tendency to 'thin out' as it climbs, which means that the upper notes, to be effective, must be reserved for the large string section. To write a C above high C for the violins of a six-violin section is quite foolish since the note, even if played in tune by all six, is thin and ineffective. Such heights should be reserved for sections including at least eight violins, more if possible. If you are writing an arrangement for a recording session, a skillful engineer can place the string mike in a position that will ensure a warm, intense C above high C, even though the violins may be as few as the eight I mentioned."

(End of quotes from "Sessions With Sinatra")

Considering what John Palladino and Nelson Riddle have stated in these references, it seems incorrect (IMO) to alter the sound in the manner that Bob Norberg has described in the above quote from "Audiomedia", as it may alter the way Nelson intended his arrangements to sound and disturb the overall integrity of the arrangement (IMO).

 

Good lord, that article was a horrific read...

 

Yes, thanks for that link, and for your wonderful reviews. It's reassuring to know that one's aural perception does in fact have a real-life explanation.

I have all the individual Capitol EOTC 20-bits (but not the recently-released "other" albums, supposedly 24-bit), and not only do they sound crappily transferred along the lines Norberg reveals (in general resulting in attenuated highs, goosed low end, odd balances, and digititis), but some of the source material sounds like utter ****: the "Come Fly With Me" album is almost completely unlistenable, and "Only the Lonely" sounds bizarrely semi-stereo; saddest of all, "Songs For Swingin' Lovers" sounds like it has a severe case of edge warp--it's a complete travesty of one of the greatest albums ever made.

It's been said that the "Concepts" box uses different, newer, and better transfers on these titles, but I'm not gonna spend what they're asking for this thing until that becomes an established fact rather than just speculation. Re "Concepts," it seems that:

1. "Swingin' Lovers" still sounds defective.

2. No mention is made of "new transfers" on the printed material, which is to say nothing to distinguish the 20-bit EOTC single issues from their counterparts on the new set.

3. Whatever the transfers on the box are, or when they were done, Norberg is supposedly given credit for them all (unlike the individual EOTC's). That alone gives me pause.

4. The box includes the same extra tracks on each album as the previous reissues.

Norberg did the Sinatra Capitol Singles box, which also sounds hard and over-processed--maybe Norberg's idea of "better sound," but nothing like any tube-era high-fidelity tape I've ever heard. But of course Norberg knows better than the original producer, the original engineer, Nelson Riddle, and Frank Sinatra. (Nice guy, perhaps, but he seems to have done some not-so-nice things to the Sinatra tapes, which is really all that matters to me. I mean, I'm not gonna be having dinner with him [especially after this posting].)

I'd like to acquire this stuff in good sound on CD, but I don't want to buy the "Concepts" box if it duplicates the rotten single issues that I already have or provides only a minimal improvement. And if it really was all done by Norberg, I'm sure I'll never buy it under any circumstances.

That brings me back to the British EMI box. I know it uses "wrong" tapes in certain cases, but it's also been praised for its sonics in some quarters. Disregarding for a moment the question of how accurately it represents the original tapes--which apparently none of these reissues does anyway--is the EMI box in general a "better-sounding" alternative?

MK

 

What I've heard is that the tracks on the EMI set sound "wetter" (i.e., more echo) than either the Norberg remasters or the 1987 CD issues (mastered by Larry Walsh, I believe?). I've also read that the UK set was mastered from inferior source tapes, although as the Norberg escapade proves sound quality can be as contingent on the mastering engineer and his philosophy as on the source material itself.

Oh, Lordy, how I hope some of Frank's Capitol stuff makes it onto DCC someday! At the very least, let Steve do some kind of sampler compilation so's we can hear that "breath of life" applied to "Witchcraft" or "One For My Baby".

 

I used to have that EMI set, but I've already sold it. I do remember some albums, like "Songs For Swingin' Lovers" and "Only The Lonely" sounding much better (and I mean, A LOT better) on the EMI set than the EOTC CD's, but the quality really varies. Some albums are definitely wetter, the most prominent example being "Nice N' Easy," which I recall having far more reverb than the other CD's in the box set.

 

Thanks Matt, Mitch, and Guy for the input.

Mitch, regarding your comment about the source material being poor for the "Come Fly With Me", "Songs For Swingin' Lovers!", & "Only the Lonely" albums. "Come Fly With Me" (album) does have problems as a recording, distinct from any particular issue/mastering of it as I mentioned when I wrote about the EOTC disc of it. I don't know why it is the worst sounding of Frank's Capitol albums overall (IMO). Maybe Steve knows why this recording is kind of flawed (although Frank sounds OK if mastered well). The "Songs For Swingin' Lovers!" tapes should sound excellent - I'm referring to the original 1956 master, not the 1962 dub with echo & EQ added. The "Only the Lonely" tapes should sound really great and not as you say (and you hear on the EOTC issue) "semi-stereo". Any sort of "semi-stereo" sound you're hearing on that disc is a consequence of the mixing/mastering. That album has a deep/wide soundstage. If you have a turntable, get yourself (somewhat hard to find, especially not chewed up) an old stereo LP of "Only the Lonely" (Note: two songs are missing on the stereo LP - the album ran too long for such an early stereo LP; 53 min). The soundstage is wide and deep. I had planned to discuss the EOTC "Only the Lonely" today or tomorrow, but I lent the disc to someone and he has to send it back, so I need to get it back first to relisten to while going over what I have written at home. Sorry for the delay. Hopefully I can get it posted here by next Monday or Tuesday.

 

Steve mentioned some sort of malfunction on the machine used to record the stereo mix of "Come Fly With Me." I'll look for the post tonight and put it on here.

BTW, I used to have the EOTC CD of Only the Lonely. I remember Frank's voice sounding really bad on 'One For My Baby.' It was like his voice was breaking up or something. Just awful...

 

Here's the post from Steve Hoffman:

"'Come Fly With Me.' An interesting situation. Each song on the album was recorded in mono and in multi-track. Since the mono is the version they were 'going for' in 1957, it sounds fine. The Binaural multi-track version was recorded with SEPARATE mics and equipment. One of the Mic preamps had a bad tube in it for several of the songs and that is what you hear overloading and distorting. Only on the stereo version. Get it? The EMI version (the EMI Centennial LP release) used a British copy of the original mono (undistorted) tape. That's probably why they used the mono instead of the stereo mix made from the distorted multitrack."

 

Matt wrote:

I used to have the Hawthorne, CA Beach Boys set, and in the liner notes, they talked a bit about Bob Norberg, who was responsible for one of the early rarities on the disc

I reply:

According to Chuck Granata (a Sinatra expert), the Bob Norberg who works for Capitol Mastering is NOT the same Bob Norberg who was a friend of Brian Wilson's.