I have this exact pressing of Toto IV https://www.discogs.com/release/19129066-Toto-Toto-IV I can tell you it was manufactured in either 1989 or 1990 as CBS (Sony) only used the red stripe design during those two years. Earlier was the black rings (like early European CBS CD's) and after that was "plain face" Columbia. Tonight I decided to re-rip it. And feeding it through the old EAC, the pre-emphasis flag turned up. I made the .cue sheet with this version. I then loaded it up in the current EAC. Whoah! The pre-emphasis tag actually said "Yes". I've never seen that before on the current EAC. I didn't notice last time I ripped this CD because I assumed it was a newer mastering. I ripped it in EAC and then iTunes. Playing just "Rosanna", yes there is an audible difference. The trebble isn't as high - expected, given what pre-emphasis does - and the whole song had a richer sound. But there was one other thing I noticed.... EAC rip iTunes rip Why is it quieter? I assumed it was a setting in iTunes but I've also re-ripped three of my old Bily Joel CD's and they all seem to be at the same volume level. Either that or the difference is so slight that I didn't notice. Honestly, my eyes aren't the best. Ripped: "Piano Man" 35DP 109, "Turnstiles" 35DP" 111 and "Songs In The Attic" 35DP 19. I also ripped "The Nylon Curtain" 35DP 34 and "An Innocent Man" 35DP 77 but these don't have pre-emphasis. My CD collection is very disorganised and I can't find the rest! Anyway, what do you all make of this? Spoiler: EAC Log and Cue Text Code: Exact Audio Copy V1.6 from 23. October 2020 EAC extraction logfile from 21. April 2024, 22:09 Toto / IV [1989 CD Issue] Used drive : HL-DT-STBD-RE BH16NS55 Adapter: 1 ID: 1 Read mode : Secure Utilize accurate stream : Yes Defeat audio cache : Yes Make use of C2 pointers : No Read offset correction : 6 Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No Null samples used in CRC calculations : Yes Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000 Gap handling : Appended to previous track Used output format : Internal WAV Routines Sample format : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo TOC of the extracted CD Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector --------------------------------------------------------- 1 | 0:00.00 | 5:34.60 | 0 | 25109 2 | 5:34.60 | 3:47.10 | 25110 | 42144 3 | 9:21.70 | 4:56.20 | 42145 | 64364 4 | 14:18.15 | 3:18.65 | 64365 | 79279 5 | 17:37.05 | 3:10.55 | 79280 | 93584 6 | 20:47.60 | 3:51.65 | 93585 | 110974 7 | 24:39.50 | 4:26.37 | 110975 | 130961 8 | 29:06.12 | 3:58.45 | 130962 | 148856 9 | 33:04.57 | 4:13.48 | 148857 | 167879 10 | 37:18.30 | 4:57.45 | 167880 | 190199 Track 1 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 01 - Rosanna.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:02.00 Peak level 78.5 % Extraction speed 5.0 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC D8EF8D3D Copy CRC D8EF8D3D Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [C7A1172D] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 2 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 02 - Make Believe.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:01.05 Peak level 76.6 % Extraction speed 5.4 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 4C12C9B2 Copy CRC 4C12C9B2 Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [8FF08924] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 3 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 03 - I Won't Hold You Back.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:03.35 Peak level 86.1 % Extraction speed 6.1 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC F35B4F08 Copy CRC F35B4F08 Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [41606844] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 4 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 04 - Good For You.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:01.03 Peak level 66.6 % Extraction speed 4.9 X Track quality 99.9 % Test CRC F4E5B1FB Copy CRC F4E5B1FB Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [B8983035] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 5 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 05 - It's A Feeling.wav Peak level 62.5 % Extraction speed 6.4 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 1050ABF8 Copy CRC 1050ABF8 Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [0A305C8C] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 6 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 06 - Afraid Of Love.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:05.03 Peak level 71.5 % Extraction speed 6.9 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 1AF53871 Copy CRC 1AF53871 Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [DCC5F528] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 7 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 07 - Lovers In The Night.wav Peak level 64.1 % Extraction speed 7.3 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 1018690F Copy CRC 1018690F Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [F56FF6AD] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 8 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 08 - We Made It.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:00.47 Peak level 72.0 % Extraction speed 7.6 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC CBFDF2D0 Copy CRC CBFDF2D0 Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [D99052BD] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 9 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 09 - Waiting For Your Love.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:01.47 Peak level 68.0 % Extraction speed 6.6 X Track quality 99.9 % Test CRC DFEDD3BC Copy CRC DFEDD3BC Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [265480F4] (AR v2) Copy OK Track 10 Filename C:\Users\DJ Lion\Music\Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 10 - Africa.wav Pre-gap length 0:00:00.55 Peak level 84.5 % Extraction speed 8.4 X Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC C6AC0A3B Copy CRC C6AC0A3B Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [03D1AD11] (AR v2) Copy OK All tracks accurately ripped No errors occurred End of status report ---- CUETools DB Plugin V2.1.6 [CTDB TOCID: SdtWbgPWyUbHqcY2OexCgxf62QQ-] found Submit result: SdtWbgPWyUbHqcY2OexCgxf62QQ- has been confirmed Track | CTDB Status 1 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 2 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 3 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 4 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 5 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 6 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 7 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 8 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 9 | (19/19) Accurately ripped 10 | (18/19) Accurately ripped ==== Log checksum 6B96AAD35FEC9B5AE7BEFDAC68CFBC4F0BE02DAE4595F6A9AEA359A0107DAED2 ==== Code: REM DATE 1982 REM DISCID 8B09E80A REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v1.6" PERFORMER "Toto" TITLE "IV [1989 CD Issue]" REM COMPOSER "" FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 01 - Rosanna.wav" WAVE TRACK 01 AUDIO TITLE "Rosanna" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 02 AUDIO TITLE "Make Believe" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 05:33:55 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 02 - Make Believe.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 03 AUDIO TITLE "I Won't Hold You Back" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 03:43:50 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 03 - I Won't Hold You Back.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 04 AUDIO TITLE "Good For You" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 04:55:17 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 04 - Good For You.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 05 - It's A Feeling.wav" WAVE TRACK 05 AUDIO TITLE "It's A Feeling" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 06 AUDIO TITLE "Afraid Of Love" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 03:05:52 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 06 - Afraid Of Love.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 07 - Lovers In The Night.wav" WAVE TRACK 07 AUDIO TITLE "Lovers In The Night" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 08 AUDIO TITLE "We Made It" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 04:25:65 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 08 - We Made It.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 09 AUDIO TITLE "Waiting For Your Love" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 03:56:73 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 09 - Waiting For Your Love.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00 TRACK 10 AUDIO TITLE "Africa" PERFORMER "Toto" REM COMPOSER "" FLAGS PRE INDEX 00 04:12:68 FILE "Toto (1982) IV [1989 CD Issue] - 10 - Africa.wav" WAVE INDEX 01 00:00:00
Too late to edit so sorry about the double post, I'll try not to do it again..... Upon listening, the reason the Toto was quieter but not the Billy Joel albums is because iTunes failed to detect the pre-emphasis on all three of them! My rips are audibly identical and the Toto is audibly not identical. I think I'm going to have to learn to use SoX or something. I'm off to do some forum searching!
SoX is what I use, the newer versions sound better at de-emphasizing than the IIR and other method in Foobar that wasn’t SoX that I tried. Older SoX versions had a phasiness and boxiness that is gone now. sox input.flac -b 16 (or 24 for 24 bit) output.flac deemph you can go to and from wav or whatever you want too, but if I remember correctly if you start and end on flac sox will hold your metadata for you in the conversion. you could run a for loop across many files like in this link: Archimago's Musings: HOW-TO: CD Pre-Emphasis & Using SoX De-Emphasis. (And the decline of physical media with vinyl revenue > CD now.)
No, never. But that flag is for the size of the output file. In theory the de-emphasis calculations would bring information beyond 16 bits, but I haven’t done any listening testing comparing 16 bit to 24 bit output yet.
Nice find Kat! Some Sony Australian titles have been known to carry the old Japan/Japan For Europe mastering's. So for that one it used the DADC Austria which used the old Japan but relocated the flag.- the clue was that the flag was table of contents which all EAC's will detect! Years ago when I had itunes installed and I believe other members have commented on it also, Itunes uses a wonky EQ curve based on what- I have no idea, but it sounded really off when I last used it. Itunes will only detect PE TOC, not SUBQ like your BJ
Everything I've ever sent through SoX ends up quieter than the original file. It makes sense, since they're rolling off some of the frequencies.
Yes, I went back and did an A/B on "Africa" (I like the whole album, but obviously we'll all know that and "Rosanna" the best) and while "Rosanna" did sound "richer", "Africa" sounded like someone had just turned the "tone" control all the way to zero and called it a day.
iTunes/Music only does de-emphasis if the pre-emphasis is flagged in the TOC. Whereas some discs only flag it at the track level. That explains what you are seeing.
All of you guys are speaking a foreign language but I like the sound of it. Do I need to paste that image of a dog hearing the owner saying "blah, blah, blah, Spot, blah, blah" to the dog?
Kat, an interesting one where they re-located the PE flag. The original Japan For UK New Order-Low Life the flag is SUBQ. The Australian Disctronics used the same exact mastering but the flag was moved to the table of contents.
After some trial and error - I'm not that crash hot with command lines - I got SoX working and de-emphasized the few CD's I've found so far. And here's one for the list: Guys 'N' Dolls - Happy Together (1982). According to Wikipedia, it was an album only released in The Netherlands. And it appears to have never been released on CD. But it has, sort of. A friend of mine (a very generous friend) found it on Discogs (there's 4 copies for sale at the time I posted this!) and so I have it. And next time my scanner's connected.....
I picked this up today at Half-Price Books. Appears to be a Canadian pressing. Lionel Richie - Can't Slow Down Matrix / Runout: 374636059-2 MFG BY CINRAM *920106E IFPI6000 Flag in TOC
In practice, you may conclude that the (theoretical) De-Emphasis calculation does not matter much since older generation (Pre-Emph) Audio CDs do not exceed 20 kHz resolution and standard (16 bit) 96 dB dynamic range. For example in direct 16 bit conversion i see that such a thing is not possible, despite the claims of many comments about loss of resolution. I use EZ CD Audio Converter to De-Emph. It detects SUB and TOC flags. To test, i just ripped a song from the Lionel Richie Can't Slow Down album (1986 West Germany CD with Pre-Emphasis mastering) using three different methods. There is no loss of resolution in direct 16-bit De-Emph conversion, the frequency graph and data are exactly the same. 16 bit De-Emph Report generated by the MusicScope 2.1.0 - File: 16 bit De-Emph.wav Audio format: PCM Bit depth: 16 bit Sample rate: 44.1 kHz Effective Bits: --- bit Cut-Off Frequency: --- kHz TPL Left: -2.5 dB TPL Right: -3.1 dB TPL Mid: -3.4 dB TPL Side: -11.2 dB RMS Left: -21.9 dB RMS Right: -22.0 dB RMS Mid: -22.1 dB RMS Side: -36.5 dB CREST Avg.: 11.5 dB IS L/M: 0 IS R/S: 0 Max. M-Loudness: -11.0 dB Max. S-Loudness: -15.5 dB Integrated Loudness: -19.2 dB Loudness Range: 4.4 dB PLR Avg.: 8.5 dB Spectrum: [kHz] [dB] 1 -22.4 2 -24.3 3 -36.1 4 -32.4 5 -36.2 6 -35.9 7 -38.6 8 -34.3 9 -37.9 10 -37.1 11 -41.8 12 -44.9 13 -47.3 14 -48.0 15 -48.6 16 -54.6 17 -52.6 18 -50.4 19 -58.6 20 -59.8 21 -85.2 22 -82.5 Converted from 24 bit to 16 bit De-Emph Report generated by the MusicScope 2.1.0 - File: Converted from 24 to 16 bit De-Emph.wav Audio format: PCM Bit depth: 16 bit Sample rate: 44.1 kHz Effective Bits: --- bit Cut-Off Frequency: --- kHz TPL Left: -2.5 dB TPL Right: -3.1 dB TPL Mid: -3.4 dB TPL Side: -11.2 dB RMS Left: -21.9 dB RMS Right: -22.0 dB RMS Mid: -22.1 dB RMS Side: -36.5 dB CREST Avg.: 11.5 dB IS L/M: 0 IS R/S: 0 Max. M-Loudness: -11.0 dB Max. S-Loudness: -15.5 dB Integrated Loudness: -19.2 dB Loudness Range: 4.4 dB PLR Avg.: 8.5 dB Spectrum: [kHz] [dB] 1 -22.4 2 -24.3 3 -36.1 4 -32.4 5 -36.2 6 -35.9 7 -38.6 8 -34.3 9 -37.9 10 -37.1 11 -41.8 12 -44.9 13 -47.3 14 -48.0 15 -48.6 16 -54.6 17 -52.6 18 -50.4 19 -58.6 20 -59.8 21 -85.2 22 -82.5 16 bit Pre-Emph Report generated by the MusicScope 2.1.0 - File: 16 bit Pre-Emph.wav Audio format: PCM Bit depth: 16 bit Sample rate: 44.1 kHz Effective Bits: --- bit Cut-Off Frequency: --- kHz TPL Left: -0.7 dB TPL Right: -0.7 dB TPL Mid: -1.4 dB TPL Side: -8.5 dB RMS Left: -20.9 dB RMS Right: -20.9 dB RMS Mid: -21.1 dB RMS Side: -33.8 dB CREST Avg.: 12.6 dB IS L/M: 0 IS R/S: 0 Max. M-Loudness: -9.7 dB Max. S-Loudness: -13.5 dB Integrated Loudness: -17.1 dB Loudness Range: 4.5 dB PLR Avg.: 9.7 dB Spectrum: [kHz] [dB] 1 -22.1 2 -23.2 3 -33.8 4 -29.0 5 -31.8 6 -30.6 7 -32.5 8 -27.5 9 -30.6 10 -29.4 11 -33.7 12 -36.4 13 -38.6 14 -39.1 15 -39.6 16 -45.5 17 -43.4 18 -41.0 19 -49.2 20 -50.4 21 -75.8 22 -73.0 24 bit De-Emph Report generated by the MusicScope 2.1.0 - File: 24 bit De-Emph.wav Audio format: PCM Bit depth: 24 bit Sample rate: 44.1 kHz Effective Bits: --- bit Cut-Off Frequency: --- kHz TPL Left: -2.5 dB TPL Right: -3.1 dB TPL Mid: -3.4 dB TPL Side: -11.2 dB RMS Left: -21.9 dB RMS Right: -22.0 dB RMS Mid: -22.1 dB RMS Side: -36.5 dB CREST Avg.: 11.5 dB IS L/M: 0 IS R/S: 0 Max. M-Loudness: -11.0 dB Max. S-Loudness: -15.5 dB Integrated Loudness: -19.2 dB Loudness Range: 4.4 dB PLR Avg.: 8.5 dB Spectrum: [kHz] [dB] 1 -22.4 2 -24.3 3 -36.1 4 -32.4 5 -36.2 6 -35.9 7 -38.6 8 -34.3 9 -37.9 10 -37.1 11 -41.8 12 -44.9 13 -47.3 14 -48.0 15 -48.6 16 -54.6 17 -52.6 18 -50.4 19 -58.6 20 -59.8 21 -85.2 22 -82.5
This 1990 CD has pre emphasis: Maria Bethânia – Simplesmente... Simply The Best Of Maria Bethania More images Label: Verve Records – 836 335-2
