Pink Floyd The Wall, my shoot-out

Hello Dave,

I do own a DADC copy of the Columbia C2K 36183 and I agree, it does sound very good.

I just got a black faced Harvest copy which was "Made in W. Germany" and seems to be a very early version. There is absolutely nothing printed on the back art except for the wall structure. No UPC, not text, no logo.

I assume (for now) that all the early Harvest CD's have the same basic mastering (there could be slight differences from pressing to pressing, just like there are with the different CBS/Columbia versions, but the differences are more subtle). This is just an assumption, and I could be wrong of course. But I have compared early EMI pressings of various countries, and they were all the same basic mastering and the differences were very subtle in most cases. I will get a silver-faced Harvest very soon, so I can complete that part of the picture a little more.

Anyhow, when I compare these two CD versions (US Columbia and WG Harvest), I think I can hear and follow what you described (veiled, lacking presence). This description is correct in my opinion when comparing it to the US/Japan Columbia. It is definitely a different sounding mastering.

Right now (and this still can change, I suppose), I have a different interpretation of these differences. I still remember when I first heard the C2K pressing, and I was almost blown away by the presence, the bass/treble and smoothness. But there was something I heard, and I couldn't really pin it down exactly, which made me think "Hmm...does this really sound natural to me?".

No, after a longer comparison with the WG Harvest, I think I can point it down better. Would it be possible, that the Columbia CD has some EQ adjustments, almost like a smiley EQ? The Harvest has more midrange and sounds more balanced, although in direct comparison with the C2K you could describe it as veiled.

It really dawned on me when I listened to the acoustic/vocal tracks on disc 2, namely "Nobody Home" and "Vera". Do the vocals really sound natural to you on the Columbia? To me, on my system (I was using my Sennheiser HD-650 as well as my B&W speakers), they didn't. And my system is definitely more laid back and not as reveiling in the treble department (some might call it slightly soft or almost muddy, but I like it). The vocals sounded much more natural to me on the WG Harvest.

Another thing I noticed: The C2K seems to have a lower volume in the left channel (or the Harvest a higher volume, but on the Harvest the two channels sounded more balanced, especially on the first half of disc 1). I also noticed that the differences between the two masterings vary over the length of the album.

The Harvest runs just a tad faster than the Columbia, but it is only around 10 seconds for one disc (approx. 40 min), which is about 0.4%.

Anyhow, I really think the Harvest is a very good (yet different) mastering on its own, and well worth seeking out for people who like this album.

I have no idea how the master tape sounds, but could it be, since the recording was done in France and Pink Floyd is a British band, that the masters are stored in Europe and that Columbia did not have the original master tapes for their CD version. Either that, or the Harvest used a EQ limited copy.

Dave, do you still have these versions, and could you maybe listen again to these two tracks I mentioned with special attention to the vocals. Maybe I am completely off, because usually I seem to have the same mastering tastes as you do, but in this case, I am not so sure. Right now I think I like the Harvest a little better.

I know there is a special thread dedicated to the Harvest CD version, and I haven't read up on it, but can owners of the Harvest chime in and let me know whether they can hear what I can hear (unfortunately, I am not so good at describing verbally what I can hear).

Hope this helps, and it is an interesting subject.

Do I need to post some scans of my CD version?

Roland

 

Slight detour....

If anyone has several different versions of this album on vinyl (Columbia, Harvest, Mofi, CBS/Sony...), it would be neat to hear needledrop clips and compare them in a shoot off!! Just a thought...I know its something myself and others would love....

 

As I said in the other thread, I have this album ingrained in my memory banks from many years of listening to it and one thing about the Harvest version is that it is very similar to the original US vinyl. I was just spinning my old LPs last week and comparing it to the Harvest CDs. Very similar. A bit more clarity and maybe mid range on the CDs but not enough to worry.

When I say "clarity", I mean that in places where there is low-level stuff going on i.e. all of the TVs playing different shows, you can hear it better on the CD. In fact, I used the track "One of My Turns" as a headphone demo for years. It has wild "surround" imaging. The TVs get turned on all "around" your head and as the lunatic smashes them, they disappear from different corners of the soundfield. It's wild.

The C2K may have all of this too. I probably will buy the thing the next time I find it in a used bin. But for me, this old Harvest CD set sounds pretty darn close to the LP.

 

BTW, I do own the MoFi and Harvest CDs as well as the LPs; however, I have no place to post sound samples. Verizon doesn't allot much on-line storage for their DSL users.

I have wanted to post .WAV files from my collection of WYWH CDs for many months but with no place to put them, they'll stay in my PC.

 

The Japan Harvest black face is my favourite mastering of the Wall, I highly recommend it. I have only it and the C2K Canuck release, and I love them both but the Harvest gets more play here. I dumped the MFSL a while back because it doesnt' compare to either.

 

By the way, my CD is exactly like this one:

It appears to be another different mastering, not like the Japan Black Harvest.

 

I did read up on the respective threads regarding the various Harvest CD editions of "The Wall". My black-faced WG version is definitely different from the Japanese black-faced versions. The peak levels are completely different.

I would really like Dave to be able to listen to this one. I did a quite long listening session (listening almost to the complete album and A/B'ing throughout), and I am even more convinced now that the Harvest used a better tape source. I did notice a change in the EQ on the US version on disc 1. The first side of the original album had a natural sound, but I seemed to notice some EQ changes on the second side of the original album (from track 7 to track 13 on disc 1). The voice and the electric guitar on "Young Lust" just don't sound natural to me. Especially the lead guitar has a harshness which is not on the Harvest. On the other hand, side 1 of the original vinyl (tracks 1 through 6 on disc 1) sounded veiled on the C2K US compared to the Harvest. The sound of the Harvest seemed to stay constant, and the change was on the C2K. I only really noticed this in direct comparison, listening to the complete album and A/B'ing back and forth.

I noticed a longer pause/break on the C2K between side 1 and side 2 of the original album, and the two sides seemed almost without interruption on the Harvest.

On disc 2 of the C2K, the EQ seems to be the same as on the second half of disc 1, slightly boosted treble and bass.

I really like the sound of this WG Harvest. Maybe I can track another one down and send it to Dave.

Roland

 

No other opinions on this? Does anybody hear what I am hearing regarding the C2K Columbia non-remastered disc?

Is everybody happy with the way the vocals and electric guitar sounds in the above mentioned examples on the C2K release?

Roland

 

Hi Roland,

I'll give this another listen tomorrow, it's 1:36am here right now and let you know if I agree. Unfortunately I no longer have the Japan Harvest, but I can compare it against the 48DP if you want.

 

How does that work, exactly? How do the pictures differ? I've never owned this album on CD but would be interested in finding that C2K mastering.

Thanks!

 

The one I bought (the Canadian C2K blackface) has the Disc 2 Disques in a square in the upper left corner of the front of the case. To double check, I also e-mailed the seller to get the numbers from, and a description of, the discs.

Check your PM...

 

Roland,

I totally agree with you. I had the Japanese first pressing for years and thought that it was the best version until I saw the thread about the Harvest version. I tracked one down and found it to be better balanced and more natural-sounding...plus it doesn't have the annoying "click" on 'Comfortably Young'. It is now my preferred version.

 

Roland,

Are you 100% sure that the player you are using to listen to the C2K can decode Pre-Emphasis properly?

In one of my players, the C2K (Japan for US) sounds warm and milky smooth. On another player it sounds crispy and the cymbals are the obvious indicator that PE isn't being decoded properly.

 

Hello Jeff,

I am not 100% sure, but I thought if you cannot decode Pre-Emphasis that it sounds pretty bad. That's not what I am hearing.

Maybe somebody knows: I have a Denon DVD-2200.

The C2K does not sound bad at all, in fact it sounds very good. It is just when I compare it to the Harvest I hear the differences I described.

By the way, I am not sure if my C2K (DADC copy, made in US) even has Pre-Emphasis.

Roland

 

Hello Owais,

thanks for your reply/post. At least I am not the only one, I was kind of worried that my hearing gives way...

Which Harvest version do you have? I am still trying to find out in what way these Harvest versions differ. I know the early Japanese Harvest has pretty low peak levels (around 50%), and my WG Harvest has peak levels between around 70% to 98%, it has about the same volume level as the C2K.

There are also the silver faced UK/Holland pressings, and I would like to find out if they are different. From what I have read in the respective thread, the silver-faced Harvest has some slightly different peak levels compared to my WG Harvest.

Roland

 

I have the silver-faced UK Harvest.

 

I now also have a "Made in Holland" silver-faced Harvest CD.

The timings of each CD and each individual song are identical to the WG black-faced Harvest CD. EAC recognizes both CD versions as the same CD (I did not have to get the CD from the database again, and EAC remembered my specific edits to the titles which I had done when loaded the WG Harvest for the first time).

The CD's seem to run perfectly in sync on two different CD players.

Yet, they are not digitally identical. The peak level slightly differs (I did get 61.3% for Hey You on the WG disc and 62.7% on the Holland disc). Seems like both come from the same tape transfer but something happened afterwards, probably in the digital domain.

The CD's seem to sound quite different on different CD players. I assume this might have to do with one disc being black-faced and the other being silver-faced. This could result in a different playback performance, depending on the player (I am talking about differences of the same version, not between the two versions).

The two versions sound a little different also, but I can't say yet which one I like better. I have to do a longer listening test. What I can say is that I prefer both Harvest versions to the US C2K, and I am now quite confident that these Harvest discs indeed sound better and are from a better tape source. YMMV of course.

I have to do some more listening to decide whether I have a preference for the WG or the Holland disc. I assume that the Holland disc is most likey identical the the UK disc (there is a EMI Swindon in the matrix code on one of the silver-faced Holland discs).

Regarding coolness factor, the WG version wins. the black-faced version looks cool and it has absolutely nothing (except the wall structure) printed on the back. The Holland version has a UPC code on the back in addition to a small PM 613 number/code.

Roland

 

By the way, I remember there was a cool website which listed all different The Wall CD versions. Does someone still have that link?

Roland

 

Is there any chance you can throw up some samples? Be great for us to have a listen to compare ...

 

Is it this one?

http://pinkfloydcdscanz.bizland.com/3WALLMAINPAGE.html

 

Yup, that's the one, thank you very much!

Cool, my W.Germany disc is even different to the one listed (earlier version). Mine has no UPC on the back and nothing like "Printed in...".

Roland

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any such webspace and a too slow internet connection to do so.

Roland

 

I did some more listening last night. The two versions sound very similar, but I think I can hear very slight differences. It is possible that the difference is only the slight difference in the overall level.

If I had to describe these very slight differences, I would say the the Holland CD has just a tad more "presence" and that the WG disc sounds a tad more relaxed. These are quite small differences in my opinion, and both versions sound great. I really can't say that I have a preference for one of these two versions.

What is the peak level in "Hey You" on the UK Harvest? I would expect it to be the same as the Holland Harvest.

Roland

 

O.k., I now have the following three Harvest CD versions of Pink Floyd - The Wall:

West Germany: Absolutely nothing printed on the back except for the wall structure, black faced disc, Sonopress

Holland: bar code printed on back cover, silver faced discs

UK: No bar code on the back, just a small "Printed in ..." on the back

I compared all three CD versions, and the WG has a slightly different mastering (different peak levels), I compared the UK and the Holland, and the wav-files are identical, so they share the same mastering.

I don't have the Japanese version, but that one has yet another mastering, the peak levels are much lower.

I am not sure if I like the West Germany or the UK/Holland better. They both sound great, but very slightly different. I would have to do an A/B test with two identical playback devices to see which one I like better.

Both of them are in my opinion better than the US Columbia C2K.

Roland

 

Roland, I have a Japanese version coming to me shortly. Once I get it, I will report back on how it compares to the UK Harvest.