Pink Floyd Sax Remasters not remastered in Europe - my Empirical Analysis

Hi. That is certainly NOT the Sax remaster of DSOTM.

The peak levels of the Sax Remaster are:

67.9 / 69.1 / 76.9 / 75 / 96.8 / 69.6 / 89.3 / 75.7 / 82.5

Sax remastering was in the US 20th anniversary edition and was mantained in US editions until 2003, when it was replaced with Guthrie's. In Europe that mastering was used between 1992 and 1993, and in the 20th anniversary box as well, but for some strange reason it was replaced in the 1994 reissue (and onwards) by the pre-remaster mastering. Why? I don't know.

The Harvest pre-remaster CD peak levels are:

87.8 / 94.7 / 100 / 97.2 / 100 / 99.1 / 100 / 96.1 / 100

With some versions peaking at 97.7 in the last track (Italian for example)

In the EU that old mastering was replaced by Guthrie's in 2003 too, but not completely. The old pre-Sax mastering was reissued once again around 2004. Only in 2008-2009 reissues Guthrie's mastering was adopted in the EU as the standard (mislabeled as Sax remaster, but that's another story).

The peaks you report are completely new to me. Can you please provide some extra information? from the label for example (country of origin, year of manufacture, etc). Where did you buy it? It'd be much appreciated.

It could be, as kevin5brown states, a level shifted version of Guthrie's remaster. Perhaps he can help you if you provide some samples of the songs.

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About your question of the best pressings for the PF albums, well, I think the vast majority of this forum will say: ultra-rare, very expensive if you find them, Japanese first pressings. OOP very long ago, but can be found on places like eBay. Those are probably the ones to get (I have some and believe me, those sound fantastic), but you'll have to be ready to give away a lot of your hard earned cash to get your hands on one copy of some of them (DSOTM and WYWH being the most expensive nowadays).

Other editions include MFSL masterings, that have some supporters and some detractors (me in the 2nd group) and Sax remasters (I really like them, but I'm in the minority here who does). Some people love the Japan Mini-LP issues from 2004 I guess (TOCP-XXXX catalog numbers). They claim those to be superior sounding, but to me sound like Sax remasters in Mini-LP sleeves.

IMO: I'd probably bet for early WG (West Germany) and Columbia "made in the USA" pressings, probably the best price-quality relation. Sound great and you can find them for reasonable prices at eBay.

Of course all this is a matter of tastes. You'd probably get a lot of different opinions, and if you do a search you'll find at least a couple of thread topics related to the "task of finding the best PF pressings".

Cheers!!

 

For Piper and DSotM, yes. For Final Cut, no.

 

His numbers don't match any CD in Vernon's database.

I wonder if they moved the index points on the Guthrie remaster?

Only the MFSL, the Guthrie, and the two Shine On Sax versions (but not the regular issue Sax) treat Speak to Me as a separate track. All other versions have 9 tracks.

 

I think this is what's currently in print:
http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DItCDPF.htm#DSOTM09
Which is the Italian made 2009 EMI release available throughout the EU, and uses the Guthrie.

 

But, what will we argue about then?

We only have a couple months left, better get this out of our systems while we have a chance.

 

OK, I can't tell by looking at the waveforms. If the waveforms look identical, most likely it's the same mastering, but if they look different, they still can be the same. The trick is that, as foobar2000 suggested, they definitely moved the index points. This is the CD layer from the SACD:



Index points are moved which means what's showing on the screen has a different "magnification", so they can't be directly compared.

If I had the file itself, I could zoom in and see if the features are the same at the same magnification, if that makes sense. Anyway, to be sure, I'd need a sample.

 

I bought this CD from Play.com about couple of months ago.

Cat # is 7243 8 29752 2 9 and in the back cover it says "Printed in the U.K." There also are I: 070, F: PM 520 and CDEMD 1064. In CD there is only 5112262 and one barcode :| In the label side there is year 1994.

Maybe I could post some samples. Do you want them from every song and how long are legal? Where is the best place to upload them?

Btw, does it matter that this CD was ripped with foobar2000? Can the ripping software change peak levels?

Actually your waveform looks very similar to mine. I have widescreen monitor and that's why it's wider.

 

Masza- Can you get me the 1st 2 min of the same track as the waveforms? Money?
I can do WAV or FLAC. I always like www.yousendit.com for uploads.

 

Hey Atreides,

Thanks so much for your efforts, whatever masterings they may be, my Japan TOCP-53807 and the others in the series sound great to me, so I think I'll leave it at that

 

I'll post pics tomorrow, but the "unknown" Money is the same exact mastering as what's on the CD layer on the SACD ... but the phase is inverted. Took me a little bit to figure that out.

 

What could be the reason why the phase is inverted? Is it in the CD or a problem with my computer/dvd drive?

Btw, I checked peak levels with TT Dynamic Range Meter and it shows that the peak levels in right channel of Money are over. So it means that peak levels for Money are 100. Same goes for last three tracks. But why would EAC show wrong levels?

 

Inverted phase: probably the CD itself. It happens, although I've never known why.

Peak values: this is a guess, but the actual level on the disc might be less than 100 if the signal in that spot was originally clipped, and then the overall level of the song was reduced, some software tries to reconstruct what the peak was supposed to be (I think), and it then reports that value. GoldWave does this too.

I think of it this way: imagine a single peak as a triangle, and now you lop the top off. I think that some software looks at the slope on each side of that flat plateau, and then "guesses" what the peak really should have been. Now, if the peak is properly rounded off so that it becomes a hill-like mound, and not a chopped off plateau, then that's compression. Just a guess, but I've seen this before, and it makes sense to me unless anyone else has a better explanation.

Btw, even though it might not sound that bad, the CD layer of the SACD is probably the worst mastering of DSOTM out there.

 

Pix. A section of Money from the CD layer of my SACD:



The same section from Masza's disc:



See what I mean about the exact same, but inverted?

 

Also, I think I'm using the terminology wrong?

"Clipped": imagine the triangle, but with the top cut off. Truncated.

"Compressed": I got this wrong I think. Same triangle, but for example, instead of the entire triangle going from 75% level to 108% (or whatever), the entire triangle is compressed so that the peak falls less than 100% now.

"Peak limited": maybe this is what I described above? Same triangle as for the "clipped" example, but the top is rounded so that the peak is still less than 100%. Similar but different to compressed.

If I can get motivated in the next little while, I'll do a picture !!

 

Does the inverted phase affects the sound? If I don't remember wrong, my standard DSOTM CD sounds even worse than the CD layer in SACD

 

Ok, inverted phase is when instead of the speaker cone going out, it goes in. And vice versa. Some people say that they can hear a difference, some can't. Another phrase I've seen is "absolute polarity".

Personally, I think mastering differences would overwhelm phase differences.

 

Wow, this is new to me, is exactly the same but in front of a mirror... would love to give a listen to that CD.

 

Atreides,

Thanks for this thread!

I'm in the UK and have been listening to the Sax "remasters" that weren't without knowing it. I'm also lucky enough to have picked up Shine On when it was released, but hadn't actually listened to the CDs!

I bought Shine On when still listening to vinyl (MoFi AHM, Meddle and DSOTM, Sony/CBS 1/2 speed MasterSound WYWH, Japanese of the rest excluding More, OBC and TDB). Domestic circumstances caught up on me and I finally switched to the more child-friendly CD format so I could listen to TDB (not initially available on vinyl, like Amused to Death).

I bought the individual UK "remastered" CDs and have never listened to any others. I was always rather disappointed with DSOTM on CD (although not as disappointed as I was with Sgt. Pepper), but the advent of DSOTM in high resolution on SACD sorted that one out. TFC remains a disappointment to me compared to the detail on the Japanese vinyl, including the more recent Guthrie remaster with WTTBF (which is out of place in my view).

This thread has made me go back to the Shine On set... and what a difference. This difference is not necessarily all good, but the Sax ASOS is a revelation. I also personally like the Sax DSOTM, WYWH and Animals (unless Animals is at high volume when it grates a little), but am not sure about Meddle or The Wall.

One question though; do I need to get hold of a 1987 US Anniversary Edition of TFC to get the Sax remaster?

Now looking forward to the WYWH SACD and wondering whether the "new" Guthrie remasters are worth a listen.

 

With regards to Meddle, I have .....

MEDDLE : TOCP-53806
97.7 / 77.7 / 97.7 / 97.7 / 69.2 / 94.8

Are those levels some kind of tweaked mastering ? .... as they seem to be unique to the Toshiba/EMI issues starting in 1994 with the 4th issue TOCP 8254, remaining consistant with every release through to the 9th issue, the disc in question from 2009/10 TOCP-53806. Interestingly, TOCP-53806 has TOCP-65557 on the underside of the disc which is the 5th issue. While the disc face has CDP 8297492 ? As those levels kick off in 1994, could they have something to do with the Sax remasters ? I'm just guessing here folks !!

 

I had always guessed that TOCP mastering was a tweaked version of the US remaster:

100 / 79.4 / 100 / 100 / 70.8 / 96.9: US Sax remaster '94

97.7 / 77.7 / 97.7 / 97.7 / 69.2 / 94.8: > '94 Japan

If you look up "inter sample peak distortion", there are good reasons to not have 100% peaks on a CD.

 

Interesting, the things you learn here, thanks
Anyway, I emailed Vernon and he also suggests a tweaked version of the remaster, so I'll run with that until anyone provides something to the contrary.......... and I'm quite fond of the sound of it too.

 

Me too. Just caught up on reading this entire thread. Thank you!

 

So, if I understand correctly, this would be the SAX remaster ?

http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Pink-...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1310045059&sr=1-1

 

Well I grabbed a copy of ANIMALS today, 1997 Australian pressed Sony / Columbia CD, with these levels ........

61.9 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 56.3

It's close to the Sax .........

 

Weird. A level shifted version of the Sax, maybe?