Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon Japan CDs

From Greg's post.

 

Setting aside the issue that these discs sounded identical to me anyway, what I'm telling you is exactly what you've just suggested: these discs are digitally identical.

The reason I am talking about total running time is because it is the easiest way I can think of to identify these discs, thus the 42:56 / 42:54 theory. Trying to separate these by looking at matrixes will get us nowhere, I have a feeling.

Once again, and like it or not: the 1A1 disc (Black Triangle) and my 21A2 Black Face Harvest (same disc Dave says is different) are digitally identical.

Check it out for yourself, and tell me what you think.

 

Actually Greg, all the matrixes with "TO" at the end seem to have the loud mastering .

 

That's probably right, but I think you also have a Black Face CD with the louder mastering don't you Phil? Does the matrix have any identifying markers there, or does it just lack the "CP35-3017" markers in the inner ring?

I suspect that the TO at the end of the matrix for the Black Triangles is a clue, since I have one, but I don't see anyone else here talking much about it, that's why I'm not completely sure. But in my case, it's clearly that part of the matrix that's different from Dave's BT.

 

I have one blackface harvest; it doesn't have "TO" in the matrix, and has the mastering that you and I like.

Dob's blackface Harvest does have "TO" in the matrix, and also has TTR on the end (Ticket To Ride being a feature of the mastering that generally isn't favoured).

 

That's interesting to note. If going by matrixes is the preferred way to look at this, then I would also suspect that the mastering that is digitally identical to the 1A1 BT also appears on the Black Face Japan CDs with "CP35-3017" in the inner ring. Would that be another way to look at it?

 

No, because so far it seems all the matrixes we've seen have "CP35-3017".

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=917729&postcount=90

Only a handful of them have TO however. Most that have reported TO in the matrix have reported either a loud mastering, Ticket To Ride at the end of it, or have just said "I don't think this is the holy grail".

 

SO YOU'RE SAYING THE ONE W THE TA IS THE HOLY GRAIL?IS THAT CORRECT?

 

No. We are saying that, all the TO discs (that we have been able to compare),appear to be a louder, inferior sounding mastering to all the non-TO discs we heard about.

 

For Phil and everyone else:

Do you think it's a better idea to stay away from track timings and identify these two masterings some other way for better clarity on the issue? I don't actually want to create more confusion about this.

Michael said that "all bets are off" if we're just discussing track timings, but that's actually not the case--it just so happens (as I mentioned in the long post) I saw for myself that the track timings were precisely the same in CEP for the 1A1 BT and my 21A2 BH, in addition to being sonically and graphically identical. Is there any reason to believe that this won't be consistent? If there is, then we could have a mess here.

In my particular case, I have heard two different masterings, and in my case, the two clock out at 42:56 and 42:54, the latter being the louder mastering.

If timings won't be consistent, then what's an easier way to nail this down for everyone? "TO" or not "TO"? Any suggestions?

 

This would obviously only help if track indexes are identical, but we could try comparing EAC track checksums. This should be valid if each person using EAC has the proper offset defined for their ripping drive.

Also, what is the peak percentage of the 'loudest' track in each version?

These are things that could possibly help identify different versions without having them all in front of you.

Have we seen any digitally non-identical versions that have the mono-ed out TTR yet? I'm only speaking as to data, not listening preferences.

My offset for EAC is set up properly, and I get the same checksums no matter what drive I use, no matter how many times I rip. I'll post my black Harvest checksums tonite.

 

UNDERSTAND NOW PHIL.BUT THOSE TA CD'S SEEM PRETTY HARD TO COME BY.SURE LIKE TO GET A COPY.ANYONE HAVE AN EXTRA. :

 

When you extract the wavs onto your hard drive and look up the timings, you can probably glean which ones you have (assuming there really are two masterings and no more). But what about buying one from a seller on Ebay?

 

I think I see your point. Well, something like that has happened recently. Three sellers had a BT on Ebay, and when I contacted them I would ask, "What's the matrix info, and what's the total track time?" One responded: "U1A1TO, 42:54" and the second one said: "U1A3TO, 42:54". I thought I was on a roll, but the third seller said: "U1A3TO, 42:56". I don't know if the discrepancy came from an older CDP or what, but it's tough getting info from these sellers as it is.

On the the other hand, the Japan Harvest typically goes for a lot less on Ebay, so asking about track times, even if you don't end up with the right mastering, shouldn't hurt your wallet all that much.

But yes, I'd like to find a more precise way to nail this down.

 

Ack, eBay sellers. Wasn't thinking about that. I guess it wouldn't be too hard getting them to install EAC, calibrate the offset, and rip some checksums.

 

Apparently it did. The timing you were given was 2 seconds adrift of what you/we expected...

 

I guess my answer to your original question, Greg, is to look for TO on the matrix. I can't be certain that there's no such thing as a TO that has the better mastering, but from the straw poll so far, I'd say it's the best thing we have to go on.

 

Am Bidding On A Japanese Harvest Cd Cdp 7 46001 2 On Ebay.what Questions Should I Ask?

 

Here's the info from my disc:

Japan Harvest (black face)
Matrix: CDP 7-46001 2, CP35-3017 21A2

Track CRC Peak
1 9F49E79F 39.9
2 1F9F6CD1 43.3
3 8EA8C193 70.1
4 ECE3BB76 55.2
5 B498282A 72.3
6 75FEFDE5 44.5
7 CF28387D 53.9
8 EF99C472 54.6
9 D4E1349C 61.2

Running Time: 42:56
Ticket to Ride: No

 

Here's something interesting (doesn't just relate to the Japan discs). It illustrates how engineers are always dinking around with this album when remastering it.

When remastering an album where all songs on each 'side' segue, each side (really, the whole album) should be mastered without changing the levels of individual tracks. That is, treat each side (or the whole album) as one giant song. The relative levels of each track should pretty much stay the same on every new version of the disc, that is, whichever song was the 'loudest' should stay as such on each new remaster.

Here are the three loudest tracks, in order, from the flipside of some different versions of the album:

MFSL gold UDI
Eclipse
Any Colour You Like
Money

Anniversary
Money
Any Colour You Like
Eclipse

Japan Harvest
Money
Eclipse
Brain Damage

SACD Redbook
(EVERY track except 'Us and Them' peaks at 100.0%...maximum tampering!)

Now, I've always felt that 'Eclipse' should be the crescendo for the whole album; the thematic climax and the highest volume...and the MFSL has it. But I certainly can't prove that was the original intent of Parsons and the band.

But regardless of which way you think is 'right', there can really only be one 'right' way for an album of this type, and it's very obvious that most of the remaster engineers just can't keep their hands off the levels while each side runs...

 

Just to follow up on Michael's info, here are the numbers I got from the logfiles I saved when ripping my discs. Here is the log report for Dave's 1A1 copy:

EAC extraction logfile from 20. March 2005, 20:58 for CD
Pink Floyd / Dark Side Of The Moon

Used drive : LITE-ON LTR-32123S Adapter: 1 ID: 0
Read mode : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, disable cache
Read offset correction : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

Other options :
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


Track 1
Speak To Me , Breathe.wav

Peak level 39.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC FF828762
Copy OK

Track 2
On The Run.wav

Peak level 43.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 707A1273
Copy OK

Track 3
Time.wav

Peak level 70.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 220DB147
Copy OK

Track 4
The Great Gig In The Sky.wav

Peak level 55.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 8A68336D
Copy OK

Track 5
Money.wav

Peak level 72.3 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 15657C5A
Copy OK

Track 6
Us and Them.wav

Peak level 44.5 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 77647BA2
Copy OK

Track 7
Any Colour You Like.wav

Peak level 53.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 54515AB9
Copy OK

Track 8
Brain Damage.wav

Peak level 54.6 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC DA737FC0
Copy OK

Track 9
Eclipse.wav

Peak level 61.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F099F42F
Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report




For the record, here is the log report for the Black Triangle I own, U1A1TO:

EAC extraction logfile from 20. March 2005, 20:31 for CD
Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

Used drive : LITE-ON LTR-32123S Adapter: 1 ID: 0
Read mode : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, disable cache
Read offset correction : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

Other options :
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


Track 1


Peak level 87.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC EC11C09C
Copy OK

Track 2


Peak level 94.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 77BC5A9E
Copy OK

Track 3


Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC D0E5B964
Copy OK

Track 4


Peak level 97.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C6C4FABF
Copy OK

Track 5


Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC CE69EE65
Copy OK

Track 6


Peak level 99.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 62CE6594
Copy OK

Track 7


Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC B03F57BA
Copy OK

Track 8


Peak level 96.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 6137FC9A
Copy OK

Track 9


Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 428E9ABA
Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report

 

Look at the peak levels. Dave's Toshiba levels hits exactly the same peaks as my black Harvest on every single track. Just that alone almost ensures it is the same master. Your Toshiba does not; a different digital master.

I notice your offset is zero, which is unlikely if you have calibrated the offset in EAC. Have you done so?

Of course, a burn of Daves disc won't have CRCs matching mine unless:

1) The copying technique used proper read and write offsets.
2) The original discs share identical track markings and lengths (sourcing from the same master won't necessarily ensure this).

 

I'm also very interested in getting to the bottom the question which versions are identical or not? But you must make sure your EAC software is set-up correctly for your drive.


A list of drive offsets can be found here http://www.accuraterip.com/driveoffsets.htm and here http://www.forum.eac-audio.de/index.php?showforum=22offset-en.php and here http://users.pandora.be/satcp/eacoffsets01.htm

You MUST use the correct drive offset to make an accurate comparison across different drives.

You SHOULD also use a drive that overreads into the lead-in and lead-out to have an accurate CRC check of the first and last tracks. Most Plextor’s are capable of overread. See http://come.to/satcp go to Tutorials on the left, and "The Truth About Offsets"

If you don't have a drive that overreads into lead-in and lead-out and have corrected for your drive's offset, then you can only make comparisons about the CRC checks of the tracks between the first and last. Also, only after correcting for your drive's offset AND if it is not capable of overread, then can you use "Fill up missing offset samples with silence" in the EAC options.

Also, you MUST not check off "Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error informations" in the Drive options of EAC, as this method of error control is not 100% accurate and may introduce errors, and therefore different CRC check sums.

 

Everything on my machine is as you describe. I don't suppose you can tell me how to add and remove the pre-emphesis flags can you? Thanks.

 

This still does not guarantee identicle masterings of these 2 different pressings.

and my own are set. If I could only figure out about those pre-emphesis flags.