Paul McCartney to play "Carnival Of Light"?

You wouldn't be talking about "Shazam!," would you now?

- M.

 

Give that man a gold star !

 

I once read

I read that Rubber Soul was actually a song title at one point but the song was pulled and that the song might actually have been 12 Bar original.
I forget what book it was but it was one of those pre-Lewishon books about unreleased songs.

 

I'm very familiar with "Help Me," and I don't think "12-Bar Original" resembles it any more than it resembles a hundred other blues songs.

 

Actually, "You'll Know What To Do" was found and discussed in Mark Lewisohn's The Complete Beatles Chronicle. Published in 1992, three years before the song's appearance on 'Anthology 1'. I think you're underestimating the insanity of Beatles fans, when you say it's "foolish to assume that we know every song they ever made a recording of". I'd say, at least 99.9% of all studio material is "known". Private demos are a separate matter...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toptentwist
So my theory is "12 Bar Original" was actually an aborted attempt by The Beatles to record "Help Me"... if they had continued forward - they would have layered vocals on top of the track... my guess is the lead vocal would have been Paul - given that he sang the song a few years later on stage with Wings.


Call me crazy if you want... but dig up the three recordings and give them a listen first:

1.) "Help Me" - by Sonny Boy Williams
2.) "Help Me" - by Paul McCartney & Wings (with Paul on lead vocal)
3.) "12 Bar Original" - by The Beatles

I agree. "12-Bar Original" is strange. A self-indulgent exercise in one of the few musical forms The Beatles were not qualified to play. One of the worst "jam" bands of all-time. What's even stranger, is that they devoted an entire 'Rubber Soul' session to this mess, despite being under the most stressful album deadline of their entire career...

 

McCartney did better jamming by himself on the McCartney album than the Beatles did as a group on "12-Bar Original". And this will surely open a can of worms, but I think Ringo's best "jamming" as a drummer was on some of Yoko Ono's early solo material.

 

Those cigarettes back in 65 made 12 bar sound better through the big monitors!

The beatles were pretty tricky lads, there might be a song or two lurking besides of course the one I've brought up 123 times!

 

Except that we don't have evidence of Paul McCartney singing 99 other blues songs...

Try listening to the two recordings back to back... and focus on Sonny Boy's harmonica (compared with what I'm guessing is John Lennon on keyboards on The Beatles track)...

 

The funny thing is after the Anthology album came out - I started making my own compilation... kind of like how I felt Anthology should have come out... and I inserted some interviews into my mix...

Right there in the middle of an interview that took place in Australia in the summer of 1964, Harrison referenced "You'll Know What To Do" when talking to a reporter... I forget exactly how it came up - but there was a discussion about new songs - and George says something like "Oh - I've got a new one..." and someone starts humming "You'll Know What To Do" (without lyrics)...

I can't remember if the person who does the humming is George (I seem to remember it as Paul), but its on an old (legitimately released) vinyl LP called "Beatlestalk Downunder" (that might not be the exact title - but I'm positive its "Something downunder")...

Its very brief... but I'm certain its the song we got on Anthology...

And the album I'm talking about came out at least 10 years PRIOR to the Anthology album.


There were approximately 10 albums that came out in the mid-80s that featured spoken word interviews with The Beatles... on several small labels... I ignored those albums for a long time - but I eventually picked them up and enjoyed them for what they are (time capsules)...

 

Harsh, Mike.

I didn't know you had to be "qualified" to play a 12 bar blues; it's one of the most basic forms of music there is. Isn't "Can't Buy Me Love" or "She's A Woman" basically the same kind of blues form? Does anyone have a problem with those songs?

Can a song which was unreleased for 30 years be called "self-indulgent"? Nobody even had the chance to be bored by it prior to Anthology II. If anything, it was an act of restraint by the Beatles to not put it out.

Putting all that aside, it's not the greatest thing they ever did but it is hardly as awful as some claim. If nothing else, it shows that George Harrison could never have gotten a job in a jam band, but the rhythm section does just fine there.

The song on Anthology II is an edit; I've heard a 5 minute long section of it, and they were wise to cut it down. And finally, Rubber Soul didn't seem to suffer from the one day the group spent on 12 Bar Orginal. If the biggest band in the world can't waste one lousy day to play the blues, I don't know who should.

 

By the way, I always find strange to criticise something not meant to be an "official" product. I mean, it was in fact released, but more like in the shape of a recording "memento". To my mind, their 12-bar thing didn't really click as a track - and they knew it all along. However, I don't think they were trying to mock a 12-bar Blues song throughout its making. It's more like a 12-bar done in their Liddypool way. Not trying to imitate the bluesmen, you know.

 

No such thing as a blues song not being blues...it is either great,good or lame. The latter with The Beatles...imo....I agree about not meant..but it became official and$$$$ made so it has to have its day...

 

OK, I listened to them back to back. Same conclusion: "12-Bar Original" doesn't resemble "Help Me" any more than it resembles a hundred other blues songs. In fact, "Bring It On Home," the song that follows "Help Me" on my Sonny Boy Williamson CD, shares a similar resemblance to "12-Bar Original."

That's actually George Martin on harmonium. John's on guitar — which raises the question: If the Beatles were going to cover a Sonny Boy Williamson song, wouldn't John be more likely to be playing harmonica?

And if they were playing "Help Me," why did they call it "12-Bar Original"?

 

12 Bar Original has George Martin on keyboards, and not John Lennon.

The Anthology editied version is actually the way to go to listen to this cut.

Evan

 

It was around prior to that, albeit illegally.

 

...it seems they did better on Yer Blues, a few years later, huh

 

I'm not sure THEY called it anything.

The title always struck me as something that an EMI studio employee wrote down because he was too shy to ask the Beatles what the song was called.

I'm not disputing that some 30 years after the fact they (tacitly) decided that was indeed the title (when the song was copyrighted as "12 Bar Original" and released on Anthology)...

But I'm still fascinated with the fact that I have a recording of McCartney singing "Help Me" on stage in 1972 with Wings... and "12 Bar Original" has *NEVER* sounded like an original composition (to me)...

 

The session tape begins with Norman Smith saying, "'12-Bar Original' we're calling it."

The title wasn't made up after the fact.

 

But who was Norman talking to ? Someone else in the control room or The Beatles ? And were they listening ???

Given that a lot of Beatle songs had funny names for early takes - its not clear that anyone was worried about the exact title for a song before it was clear that a song was finished...

All Norman Smith would care about is that he had ANY TITLE that he could use to identify what was recorded on that day... so he would know what to queue up if someone wanted to go back to it...

If you find my argument unconvincing... that's fine.

Thank you for digging up the two songs and giving them a listen.



But the origin of "12 Bar Original" is one of the questions I've always wanted to ask Mr. McCartney (if I got through on one of his internet chats or a radio phone in show)...


Now - if John were alive - I'd want to ask him about the similarities between "Cooking In The Kitchen" (a song John "wrote" for Ringo's Rotogravure album) and an old Gene Chandler b-side called "Kissing In The Kitchen" (the flip-side to "Duke of Earl")...


My question for George??? Do you find it amusing that no one seems to have noticed that your rebuttal to the "My Sweet Lord" / "He's So Fine" lawsuit ("This Song") seems to be a rip-off of Holland-Dozier-Holland's "Can't Help Myself" (complete with Eric Idle singing about "sugar pie honey bums") ??? Or are you just glad that HDH doesn't have the same lawyers as Bright Music?

 

The Beatles pinched old song bits from those records they got in liverpool when they were young. Everybody knows that. So What every songwriter whos ever lived does that knowingly or unknowingly sometimes.

I think 12 bar origional may be the rumored title track "Rubber Soul" that never surfaced anywhere. If they had worked on it another couple days who knows. Anyway it's not that bad. They gave us a lot of cool leftovers and B sides in 65.--That Means a lot--I'm Down--Yes it is--12 Bar Original--Bad Boy--If you've got trouble--I think they are pretty cool I wish we had that many from the other years in their recording discography.

Is somebody gonna tape Carnival of light so we can finally hear what it sounds like

Just think of the weird tape loops on Tomorrow never knows--and Revolution 9--and when you hear something like that press the red button!

XTC's Friend Pugwash said here on the board he heard it keep bugging him till he tells us more about it. He probably heard Now And Then too.

I wanna be in that "IN" crowd that gets to hear these secret tapes!

 

There aren't any tape loops on Carnival Of Light. When you hear some distorted drums, organ and guitar and John and Paul screaming and gurgling water then press the red button

 

Just play it safe and press the red button before the whole thing starts. Sort it out later.

By the by, how did this "Carnival of Light" thread turn into an analysis of "12-Bar Original"?

- M.

 

Someone said if "Carnival Of Light" was released, they would listen to it less than they listen to "12 Bar Original." That sparked it....

 

I've had people debate me about the similarities between "This Song" and "Can't Help Myself"... and honestly I don't understand the debate...

Song thefts are not always direct note-for-note copies... and yes - they are often stolen because the original song has invaded someone's subconscious... as George claimed in his defense on the witness stand during the "My Sweet Lord" trial.


But the IRONY of stealing a song called "Can't Help Myself" is far too thick to have been something that was done subconsciously. I think its a BRILLIANT deliberate defiant statement by George... delivered in tandem with a well known comic (Eric Idle of Monty Python)...

And yet I've never seen this wry joke mentioned anywhere in a history book... almost as if I'm the only person on the planet who sees the connection - LOL

And I didn't notice it until 1990... when I started becoming obsessive about Motown music... that's 14 years after "This Song" was released.


As for the "Cooking In The Kitchen" vs "Kissing In the Kitchen" theft.

That one might have been subconscious... but its far easier to spot than the brief snippet of the Barret Strong b-side that showed up on the Plastic Ono Band album... and I see *that* connection quoted everywhere. I seem to recall the b-side being "Oh, I Apologize" (the flip to "Money")... and the stolen phrase being "I don't expect you" (that's it)...

Are we to assume that John Lennon never heard the flip side to "Duke of Earl" (which is arguably one of the most amazing records of all time) ???


I'm not trying to knock any Beatle off a pedestal... my main interest in this regard is quite different... I enjoy spotting their influences simply because I gave up long ago on listening to the official canon and I started attempting to recreate the record collections that they might have assembled in their formative years... mostly because its an interesting hobby !!!