New dual-layer SACDs from vintage BLUE NOTE Analogue Prods, questions answered here..

Indeed. If you're that much of a purist, stick to the vinyl.

Seriously, an SACD release that lacks the bonus tracks (especially extra session tracks) of the regular CD issue is probably a deal-breaker for me. I'm willing to double-dip on a few of my favorite titles if I'm getting something extra (for example, superior sound quality), but I'd be far more concerned about missing otherwise available tracks.

 

I agree completely with the Big-O crew!

 

I'm against bonus tracks partly because I'm one of those reviled "purists," and partly because of such inappropriate shenanigans as Yoko tacking on "Power to the People" and "Do the Oz" to her remixed CD of John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band. The remix was bad enough in principle without throwing in a couple of tracks which had nothing whatsoever to do with that album, thereby diluting the artistic impact of ending the LP with "My Mummy's Dead." (I realize that the bonus tracks to which the "pro-bonus track" crowd here are referring came from the same sessions as the album itself, so my example isn't truly analogous.)

Adding bonus tracks to increase sales potential is understandable from a business point of view, but most fans of old Blue Note recordings are probably "purists" by nature and would prefer that the CD mirror the original LP as much as possible. Besides, let's face it: how many of us are going to pass up a Steve Hoffman remaster just because it's lacking bonus tracks? Just my opinion, of course.

 

You'd be amazed at how many! There are already a lot of Blue Note fanatics who are saying that there aren't many titles in the AP list that will pry 30 more dollars out of their wallet.

Remember, most of us have ALL of this music already. Getting some of us (especially those with a daughter in college ) to spend another $30, especially if it's missing some extra tracks found on the CD they already own and well... let's be blunt: I doubt I'll buy any of them that are missing this extra material. If I am thinking that way, there are definitely more out there!! Yes, it's true, I am a Blue Note addict.

As for the purist approach, I really don't understand it at all when 1) the material is presented via a digital medium or 2) the added material is placed after the "regular" LP material. If you want the music in its original LP form, you should buy it on LP. If you can only play it back digitally and don't want to hear the added material, hit "Stop". It's not like there is anything forcing you to listen to this stuff.

 

How do the DSD masters sound ? Will the SACDs be in the league of the MFSL - Modern Cool by P. Barber or the Sony SME4544 Miles: Someday My Pronce Will Come ? The latter I find comparable to the Columbia six-eye stereo lp which I must say was a pleasant surprise.

 

I honestly don't think that will be a problem. If you look at the individual 45-rpm MM & AP threads, there are many folks in the jazz newbie/casual listener camp who've made the determination to dive in and spend $50 on titles that they have little or no familiarity with (all fine & dandy btw....no argument from me.) You can count on the same folks then going the extra mile to pick up the SACDs as well......some will play them, some will squirrel them away, etc.

Once the initial batches hit the street and threads start popping up like wildflowers, heaping praise on the SACDs (ie..'Woa, that Leeway SACD is out of this world!!!') and word spreads, even the folks who inhabit the 'fanatic' category -- and who already may have TOCJs, JRVGs, domestics -- will feel inclined to see for themselves.

With so many out there lamenting the fact that SACD production had apparently nosedived into the ground only to be pleasantly shocked out of their socks when news broke that there was a major SACD run headed down the pike, you have to expect that a healthy number of folks will feel inclined to buy the BN SACDs so that they're 'doing their part' to help fend off the grim SACD reaper by sending a loud $ignal to musicexecworld!

With few exceptions (guys in NH ), I honestly can't see many people turning their back on a brand spanking new SACD series solely because an extra track wasn't added. Sorry, there are so many factors in play here that I just can't see this thing tanking.

 

Add lower shipping costs if you live overseas...

 

Yep.

 

Now I am not trying to stir anything up, but a "deal" is a relative term. Yes, $20 less for the SACD. Two of AP's 45 RPM titles (the Bill Evans titles) that were only out of print two years ago just sold for $380 apiece. That's a pretty good return on an investment. Comparable sound? Well, I won't get into that. If you like digital, that's fine. But if you're looking at the financial element I suspect that the 45's will ultimately be the better deal down the road.

 

If bonus tracks are such a big selling point, then why didn't Chad (c.f. J.A.W.'s post) negotiate for them to be included? I suspect he knows a fair amount about the business side of selling reissues and would like to make a profit on these.

I'm sure you're right that some folks can't justify the expense if they won't be getting something they don't already have (i.e., unissued material). I can only respond that every member of this forum is undoubtedly well acquainted with the quality of Steve Hoffman's work. If that isn't incentive enough to buy these discs again (if they are of interest to you in the first place, naturally), then you won't buy them. That would place you in the minority, though. I'm a middle-class Joe without a money tree in my backyard who happens to place a high priority on owning and listening to certain jazz titles. I can either buy the cheap OJC or the cheap RVG or the cheap Orrin Keepnews Collection edition of a particular title, or I can drop tall cash for a nice copy of Steve's DCC version if it exists. Given those choices, I always go for the DCC. So would most of the people here, if they can afford it.

Would I prefer to have the original first-pressing LP of all my favorite albums in mint condition? Yes, if I could afford a first-class vinyl rig along with all the requisite accessories, had the time to engage in the various cleaning rituals, and didn't mind getting up to flip the record over every 20 minutes, etc. Besides, pristine copies of all my favorite jazz albums no longer exist, or if they do, they are well out of my price range and probably exist only in the hands of Japanese jazz record collectors who would never part with them at any price.

You're right that I can simply ignore bonus tracks by programming around them, but somehow having them on the disc makes it different from the artist's original intention. That's meaningful to me, if not to anybody else. I do seem to recall SH echoing that sentiment in a post on the old DCC forum, if memory serves.

As always, time will tell who's right.

 

It occurred to me to compare these 25 Blue Note SACDs with the Creedence Clearwater Revival SACDs from a few years ago, which Chad also put out through the Analogue Productions label.

By that time, many of us either had the DCC reissues, the individual Fantasy CDs, or the Fantasy CCR Box set, which also included a disc of early/rarity stuff by the Golliwogs, etc. In fact, some of us (myself included), had a combination of those! (Oh, and many of us also have the original LPs.)

Did that stop me (and I'm guess some others like me) from buying either the individual CCR SACDs, or (in my case) the premium CCR SACD box set? Nope!

I bought the CCR SACD box set, even though it didn't have a single bonus track even though material from that early/rarity disc would have been one place to mine for bonus tracks, or perhaps some live tracks, or alternate mixes from singles, etc.

Didn't bother me one bit though, because I knew what the SACDs offered - all of the original tracks from the original albums, remastered beautifully from the best available master tapes - and that was worth the price for me.

I sold off the Fantasy CCR box set and I don't really miss the rarities disc.

So chalk me up as one consumer who's in it for the opportunity to hear the original albums without bonus tracks, remastered beautifully from the best available master tapes.

If I want the bonus tracks (which honestly I don't - I guess I'm just not enough of a fanatic!), I'll track down a used copy of the Blue Note CD edition for probably $7-10 in most cases.

Craig(VC).

 

You may be right on an investment basis, but I was thinking purely of my getting more great performances in jazz for less coin. A well done SACD (and Steve has some track record there) sounds fab in my view.

 

I never really cared for bonus tracks at all and was sometimes annoyed with them being included like this:

1. St. James Infirmary
2. St. James Infirmary [Alternate Version]
3. I Want a Big Butter & Egg Man
4. I Want a Big Butter & Egg Man [Alternate Version]
5. I Ain't Got Nobody
6. I Ain't Got Nobody [Alternate Version]
7. Panama Rag
8. Dr. Jazz
9. Dr. Jazz [Alternate Version]
10. Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight
11. Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight [Alternate Version]
12. Frankie and Johnny
13. I Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None of This Jelly Roll
14. Drop That Sack
15. Drop That Sack [Alternate Version]
16. Jelly Roll Blues
17. Jelly Roll Blues [Alternate Version]
18. Old Kentucky Home
19. Chimes Blues
20. Chimes Blues [Alternate Version]
21. Snake Rag
22. New Orleans Stomp

Then one day I realized that the Japanese K2 mastered JVC reissue CD of the Art Pepper "Intensity" album had "Autumn Leaves" bonus track, while my DCC CD had not. Why, I asked myself? Well, this changed my view over this subject, and yes, I did buy the Japanese CD, even though it sounded inferior to the DCC CD.

I do not get the "changing the history" argument. Making a reissue sound better than the original also changes the original artist intentions, if one take things literally. Never heard that anyone complained about that, however.

Not adding reverb where the original LP had it is also kind of revisionism (again, taking things literally), but it has been done, so let's not pretend that we are purists.

I will buy "Somethin' Else" with or without "Allison's Uncle", but I would rather have it included.

Goran

 

If bluenote is warming up so much to releasing 25 albums in SACD, what are the chances they revisit releasing something like Norah Jones Feels Like Home?

 

But these are not releases by Blue Note. Analogue Sounds asked to license these titles for LP release, then for SACD, and Blue Note agreed. It's not that Blue Note has new interest in SACDs.

 

Besides, Norah Jones doesn't quite fit into a series that is (exclusively) devoted to Blue Note titles from the 1950s and 1960s.

 

What about a separate sacd full of bonus material? I am all for new music

One thing I dont quiet get is this aversion to purchase these even if you already do have the titles in other forms. If it isnt a big deal that Steve is mastering these and they will sound like they have never sounded before on digital then why would a few bonus tracks entice you to buy them?

 

Just a reminder: when Analogue Productions released its Fantasy (Prestige, Riverside, etc) SACDs, they had the OJC bonus tracks (i.e. Walz for Debbie, Sunday at the Village Vanguard).
I was quite happy that, instead of locating these bonus tracks in the middle of the regular tracks (alternate versions following the master versions), they were placed in the end of the SACDs.

 

I guess some people really want that bonus material on SACD? Nothing wrong with that.

I have been collecting the 70s UA Blue Note Reissue Series on lp coordinated by Michael Cuscuna. This is all previously unreleased Blue Note material from some amazing sessions. Some sound like crap and some sound more than acceptable but it's all worthwhile to me.

I try not to understand or judge (not that anyone is doing that here) individual's buying preferences or strategies...well, other than my sanctimonius posts about buying local . But, I guess it's part of the discussion as people what to know or gather information on how successful these reissue series will be and how viable they are.

 

I was watching those auctions. Madness. Just... Wow.

 

Yes, but this is exceptional. The two Bill Evans Village Vanguard titles are the most sought after, they were in the first batch that many vinyl newcomers missed.

If the expected financial return was as large for the other titles as well, the whole 4 batches of releases would have been sold out in no time.

 

Good point. But, not just lower shipping costs. The euro is higher than the dollar, so our cousins are going to find these a lot easier to buy than the domestic crowd. Not to mention those carpetbagger canadians!

 

My take was that this suggests Blue Note is so uninterested in SACD that now they're willing to let someone else issue titles from their catalog in the SACD format.

Hopefully this suggests an emerging trend? As the music industry abandons hi-rez more and more, they could become more open to licensing their back catalog for smaller labels to release SACDs?

Craig(VC).

 

A while back in this thread someone asked for recommendations among this group of recordings, and I hadn't noticed that Sonny Rollins 'Vol. 2', is part of the set. By all means, add that to my recommendation to 'Go' via 'Blue Trane' and don't forget to bring 'Jackie's Bag'. The trip will leave you 'Moanin'.

 

No, nothing wrong with that. But to not buy the best mastering these will ever see on digital due to bonus tracks not being there? I would think the incentive to buy these isnt bonus tracks but the mastering. I'm really speaking to those who know better and hang out here.

I agree that its a good selling point to other jazz folks who may not be hip to Steve's mastering.Therefore giving them bonus tracks would entice them to buy these AND turn them on to how great they sound.Couldnt hurt.But lack of them shouldnt keep the people who visit here from buying them. I dont get that.

I would love to have bonus tracks also and think its a good idea but the most important thing is the proper ultimate version of these albums in digital.