Maybe vinyl isn't for me

The idea that you need to spend a couple of grand to get decent analog sound being bantied about here is nuts.

Granted, you will not get state of the art analog for very low dollars (probably any more than you'll get state of the art digital) but with a bit of knowledge and luck one can put together a very good analog system on a very tight budget. Yes, you'll need KNOWLEDGE and LUCK!

If you want to think high value, low budget tables THINK 70's! By the early to mid 80's analog was in such a decline that budget turntables were becoming crappier by the minute.

It's a bit of a simplification but if you want to buy a budget table, make two rules for yourself: no plastic and no automatic features. That means no plastic plinth, no plastic tonearm, no plastic platter (and preferably sub platter-that might be more difficult to do). No plastic means the 70's. Automatic features compromise performance, so manual tables. Plus there's simply less stuff to go wrong.

I have a Pioneer PL 12D in a secondary system in the house that I bought for $5 at a garage sale. Yes, $5 is low, but these tables sold in abundance and can commonly be purchased for around $100. I put an AT 120E (for $70) on it and purchased a used DB Systems phono pre (there's one that flies under the radar-easily competitive with stuff like the Cambridge 640 and beyond into the $400-$500 new phono preamps) for $55. For $130 and interconnects, I have a table that is built better than the P1 or Project Debut (my brother has the Debut so I know what it is capable of) and runs circles around them in the sound department. Short of buying a Technics 1200, there is not much in the new market that can compete with a table like this in good condition properly set up with some minimal and virtually no cost tweaking and outfitted with a good cartridge for less than $500 or $600. There's a Thorens TD 145 for sale about 10 minutes away from me right now with an asking price of $225. Why anyone buys $120 plastic turntables, let alone ones with "a broken spindle" when you can buy something like that is beyond me.

Click on the link below to see how a $90 table can groove with a Nottingham Horizon!

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=865887&highlight=pioneer+nottingham&r=

And for those who say: "Oh but you don't know what a decent table sounds like", my main table is a Michell Gyrodec with a Jelco 750D (with a custom ebony/carbon fibre headshell), wood bodied Denon 103R into an Aqvox phono stage. I know what a decent table sounds like. The tweaked PL 12D is not in the same league but it's very enjoyable and I'd rather listen to it than a CD player (any CD player for that matter). Does the Gyro/Jelco/Aqvox give me 20-30x the performance based on the price differential? No, but I'm still happy I have the better table.

In terms of cleaning records, the KAB EV1 for $160 attached to a decent vacuum and using the right fluids will give you state of the art cleaning, so proper wet cleaning need not be expensive either. I've cleaned about 3,000 records over the past 4 years with one.

One final thought. If you're considering buying a turntable to listen to new music, I'd probably recommend skipping it. 80-90% or more of the new vinyl is digitally sourced and I don't see that changing. Just buy the CD or download it and enjoy it. It makes no sense to me to slap that stuff on a piece of vinyl and tell people they're having the analog experience. They're not. If you're into music recorded prior to the early 80's go for it but be prepared to get your hands dirty. It can be very rewarding if your tastes are pre 80's.

 

I do hand clean from time to time, and I do understand the benefits of uber-clean vinyl. However, as I said, one step at a time. I'm not going to hand clean every record I have before I play it, and I don't have the cash to invest in an RCM at the moment.

 

This to me is the beauty of vinyl...

It could be that you brain (I'm not kidding) is just used to the digital sound and you miss it.

After listening to vinyl for 40 years and CD's for 20, I am convinced vinyl sounds better... TO ME

YMMV

 

Is this level of vitriol necessary? You sound like a jilted lover or something.

He didn't ask you to participate in this thread, so he's not wasting your time. Take some responsibility for your own words and actions.

 

QFT

 

I don't have an RCM. My Hunt record brush does just fine. On the rare occasions that my vinyl is dirty enough to need a cleaning, I do it in the sink with a chamois and a mixture of 50% filtered water (i.e., a bottle of Aquafina), 50% rubbing alcohol, and a drop of Dawn.

I will then usually dry the record with a chamois. Once I tried compressed air and that worked too, but I think that's going a little overboard.

In any event, an RCM is certainly a luxury, but it is by no means necessary.

 

I can't remember what reviewer it was who said he had a free way to make digital sound better, and that was to stop listening to vinyl.

While that statement is a bit flip, it is true for me that if I haven't listened to vinyl for a while, say after being away from home on vacation for a couple of weeks, and I first listen to digital it sounds fine to me--until I put on an Lp and remember what's missing from CD for me.

John K.

 

I've got to point to the Wavelength DAC again. I think a lot of the people here talking about the "digital sound" or the "CD sound" should really check one out. Pair it with *proper* computer playback instead of CD playback and I guarantee it shatters your notion of digital sound.

I don't mean to say it sounds better than analog at any price, but it can be had for a computer + $900. Tonepub says it takes $3-5K in analog gear to get the same sound. Plug it in, configure your computer properly, and click play. Don't wash it, don't be careful with it, don't shelf it, don't protect it, do back it up.

What I mean to say is, just because you've heard a $5K CD player doesn't mean you've heard all a CD has to offer. It gets a lot better for a lot less money. Plus they say the Ayre QB-9 USB DAC is a huge improvement on top of the Proton....

 

I do play and enjoy CDs, but I really can't consider 16/44 to be 'lossless'. Even on very good playback/converter equipment, my CDs can't compete with my decent vinyl setup. (SL1200/AT150mxl). But others may feel differently.

And as Steve pointed out, the unique quality of the source material alone is reason enough to have a turntable option.

"A music lover without a turntable is like ......" ... Nevermind.

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Man's got a point, you know.

 

This is where we get hung up with disagreements every time. One person says all you need is an SL1200, another says, you need much more, at least a P3, while someone else says a Linn LP12 is pretty much the starting point for that analog magic. Today's upsampling players sound very good indeed, and I take the OP at his word that his digital rig sounds very good. WhileI cannot speak to your experience, my experience is that a $400 or $500 turntable/cart does not sound better than a good cd player.

The problem with arguing this point is that there is always another variable in the equation. Maybe my table was not set up correctly, maybe I wasn't using a good enough cart, maybe my records are too dirty and on and on.

I grew up with lps and they will always hold a special place in my collection, but, for the most part, it isn't some magical thing either. It is just recorded music, just like cds. Some are good, some are great, some are just OK, and some are bad, just like cds. That has been my experience, even when auditioning some very high end tables (which I have done)

Now, as for the notion that you have to own a TT to be a real music lover or audiophile, my apologies to Steve, but I disagree for the following reasons.

Every one of us has a jumping off point both into music and into audio, and the decision re: formats has a lot to do with one's taste in music and what recordings are available at a price one can afford. We are now 25 years into the digital era. Moreover, the music that had been released in the 20 years before the digital era has mostly been reissued on cd at some point. So, for the young music lover, they either have to be interested in music that is very old and/or very obscure for it to have never been available on digital.

No doubt, there were probably old timers well into the lp era who maintained that you haven't really heard Louis Armstrong, Lester Young, or Billie Holiday unless you spun 78s. That does not make all of us who came of age in the lp era any less music lovers or audiophiles because we never embraced 78s?

 

Everybody Knows About The Bird

Not to mention Charlie Parker!

 

OK, exactly what you asked for:

Pro-ject Debut III Phono/USB. Come with cartridge and is very easy to set up. Built in, quality Pro-ject phono preamp with analog AND digital USB outputs.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutphusb&cat=turntables

A review of it from Home Theater magazine:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/convergence/508pro/

$499 and you're done:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80649

If you really want to, you can upgrade the stylus (very easy to do)to an Ortofon OM-20 for $139 (and I only say this because some people here do not like the OM-5e cartridge):

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/74085

 

True. I have been playing the Complete Charlie Parker on Verve, on cd now for several months. Without spinning 78s, it is possible I have never really heard Bird the way he was meant to be heard.

 

Agreed! Sometimes I wonder what everyone here is smoking. You don't need to spend obscene amounts of money to get a good sounding analog rig. See my recommendation above. Will it give you state of the art sound? Well, no. But will it give you an enjoyable analog experience? YES. Is it a good starter 'table? HECK YEAH.

 

"Maybe vinyl isn't for me" Me thinks you hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

My Clef copy of Night & Day is a pretty convincing argument for analog:

 

$2000 is hardly obscene. I agree it's about the minimum you need if you don't buy used.

 

To best 16/44 CD?? ......

 

Why the contempt for the cd? With a good player, they really sound quite good and, like turntables, you get what you pay for.

 

I think some people will never forget the first time they heard a CD of Kind of Blue during the dawn of digital sound. It's hard to wash that kind of sound out of your ears.

 

I think spending $2000 on an analog rig is an obscene amount of money, especially when we are talking about a starter table for a vinyl newbie. Totally obscene, in fact.

Now, my setup is a bit more than $2000, but I readily admit it is an obscene amount of money.

 

Well, if you're really feeling shame I can take it off your hands.

 

Speaking of going through the bins, I'm up in the Chico, CA area today visiting my sister for the holidays. Stopped at Elite Music and was pleased to discover most of the store is vinyl.

Bought some LPs, including a Columbia six-eye of Sarah Vaughan, a original Verve of Oscar Peterson, an usual Phillips of Sarah Vaughan (five bucks), a great sounding Fats Waller LP "Shaded Dog" RCA, a mint copy of the Dooobie's Toulouse Street, and a demo copy of The Police' Zenyatta Mondatta. All in absolutely beautiful condition.

It's what vinyl is all about...