Led Zeppelin - Remasted CD Series, Question *

I have the Zep Box. I just recently sold my WG ITTOD and it kills the remaster. not even a comparison.

most noticable is the effects on RP vocals are almost but gone on the remaster compared to the original master.

 

That FAQ is a bit misleading in that it fails to mention that this 'detail' capturing is achieved in 16-bit by the use of noise-shaped dither. They fail to do this even though they do note -- in the later section on dither -- that "General theory states that properly applied dither with noise shaping will be remain inaudible at the highest levels (0dB FSD[full scale digital]), and can give the perception of dynamic range reaching up to 115dB from a 16-bit recording.{dh}"

Talking about 'limitations' of 16 bit without including dither in the discussion is like talking about LP without the RIAA curve. Dither takes digital (and the listener) 'into' and below the noise floor...where all that 'detail' supposedly lives. And you can even shape that noise to make things even more 'resolving'. You can get that 'analog' fadeout characteristic. It doesn't require a 24 bit playback medium.

Their recommendation that you listen to everything as loudly as possible, so as to reveal the wonders of 24 bit, is also amusing. Their listening tests are also rather dubious.

32 bits are excellent for *production* in the digital domain -- editing etc -- in that it gives you headroom to keep accumulating errors from becoming audible. The*necessity* of >16 bits for the actual format delivered to the home, is questionable...though it probably won't hurt.

 

If CD's were 24 bit, the mastering engineers would just compress it and give us their typical 4 bit resolution

 

I agree that the FAQ needs a bit of an update and you're right about dither not being given enough importance but the FAQ does bring up some interesting points. It's been my experience that topics such as dither are quite contentious. You can look around various threads on here and elsewhere and find no real consensus other than that when reducing bit depth (especially to 16 bits), dither is essential.

 

Just to be clear, is the Crop Circle set the one with 4 discs released in 1990? I bought the omplete Studio Recordings believing it was the same mastering as the 4-disc set only reorganized as each origial album. I am also under the impression that the individual CD's that started showing up around 1994 are clones of the Complete Studio box. Is this correct? Don't know about the JPN mini LP CD's or anything else that came after.
Bob.

 

Yes, the crop circle set is the 4-disc set from 1990. Everything you wrote about the individual CDs and the Complete Studio Box is what I always believed. However, my informal tests on the Physical Graffiti mini-lp replica I bought last year (dated 2003 and manufactured in Germany) seemed to indicate that it was tweaked a bit or boosted). Someone also pointed out the following thread with a bunch of test results that show the complete studio box differs from the crop circles:http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=43424&st=25&p=451257&#entry451257

Interesting.

 

That was my understanding but I am surprised to see in that Hydrogen Audio link Steve T posted that the crop circles and 10CD set levels are slightly different (about 1 dB on average). The 10CD set and individual CDs that came out circa 94 are clones, at least in the USA. Don't know about all the various nonUS versions, but I do have a British minisleeve of Physical Graffiti that I recall testing out as the same as the 10CD version. I think I'll recheck that though.

 

To make this even more complicated, I also once had access to a friend's 10-CD set and compared tracks with my crop circle set and found they seemed to be identical. Yet, when I compared my mnisleeve PG, it was 2-3 dB louder than both!

I'm wondering if different CD manufacturing facilities might be coming into play here.

 

OK,so i just got an org HOTH,1973 and played The song remains the same and then played my remastered,same song and the first thing i heard on the remastered was how dead and lifeless it sounded. OMG,the org is wayyyy better so know i'm looking for the others,the search goes on.Rediscovering LZ is kinda cool.

 

I have doubts Steve as it sounds more like a complete mastering difference. On the other hand all three could be, and most likely are, from the same digital master source.

 

I have the box set and compared the ITTOD disc to the original WG. not even close. the WG disc kills it. especially in plants vocals.

 

I have the 10CD set and a Japanese minisleeve of Physical Graffiti (WPCR-11616) purchased circa 2002-3. Comparing 'Trampled Underfoot' from each, they have the same peak and RMS info (to 1/100 of a dB), and are the same length (5:36.533). Inverting and mix-pasting one on the other does not yield silence, because one is a few samples longer than the other. When they are trimmed/aligned to begin at the same sample, invert/mixpaste results in dead silence *except* for two tiny 'clicks' that occur circa 1:14 and 4:08.

So these are not-quite *clones* but for all practical purposes, they are the same remastering.

 

So i bought for 10 bucks LZ IV which the seller said was non-remastered but on the of the case it says dig remastered from the org mastered tapes by JP and George Marino and the disc number is 82638-2

 

Where? ebay? Here? Does the cat. # on the CD match the one of the booklet?

Call it to their attention and tell them you were looking for the original CD.

 

I did and he said it must have been a mistake. First said a refund w/ a prepaid envelope and i said great. Then another e-mail that said just keep the disc so i'll check paypal for a refund,so far nothing.{Amazon}

 

Well he stepped up and gave me a refund and i can keep or send back the cd.

 

Remember the late 60's and 70's when we just bought the lp's? Seemed simpler huh???

 

IMO, in the Big Box set (The Complete Studio Recordings), the spacing between the songs on their first album, did not match exactly the LP spacing in some cases. This is critical to me, as the exact way the songs faded and then introed on LZ I songs was art in itself. What stands out the most is the transition into "Dazed And Confused". There's clearly a bump or "burp" there. I expected that in the re-mastering process of an LP, that whatever needed to be done to replicate the spacing between songs exactly as was originally mastered, would be accomplished....

That, and the tiny pictures of each album in the Big Box makes me give that collection a :thumbsdn:

I would instead go for the individual CD releases.

But, ideally, for Zeppelin, go for vinyl . . .

 

Agreed, I found the original ITTOD CD and it sounds great and way better than the remaster