LED ZEPPELIN: Definitive Collection CD Box Set Due In November

Well, I find the available information floating around the internet about this release really confusing. I still don't know if there are two different releases or if it is one and the same release.

Here are some specific questions I would like to know the answers to:

Do both releases (Rhino and original Japanese release) feature SHM-CD's?
Do both releases feature the extended track listing for "Coda" and "The Song Remains..."?
Are these two releases distinguishable from the outside by a different sticker/catalog number/etc.?
For the Japanese release, I found a catalog number WPCR-13142 with a list price of 26,667 yen (28,000 yen incl. tax). For the Rhino release I found the catalog number 513820. Are these catalog numbers visible from the outside?

 

Jason from elusivedisc.com sent me an e-mail today, saying that I needed to call them about my order for this set. I just got off the phone with him, and now I have at least two answers to my own questions:

No, the domestic release (imported from Japan, but not the Japan-for-Japan release) does not have SHM-CD's, just regular CD's. Elusivedisc's info on their website was apparently wrong.

Yes, the domestic release also has the extended track listing (12 tracks for "Coda" and 15 tracks for "The Song Remains the Same").


By the way, Jason (the manager of elusivedisc) was really nice about the issue. He tried everything to make me happy as a customer. He offered me a full refund if I wanted to sent the set back, or he would price-match with Amazon for this set. In order to keep things simple, I went with the price match. I think that $140 is a fair price for this set, with all the nice artwork. Plus, I always wanted to have the extended Coda and also the extended TSRTS. I'll give these a listen once I receive them, but I don't expect them to sound better than the Barry Diament mastered versions.

By the way, I read on the internet that the original Japan for Japan issue was limited to 5,000 copies, and is sold-out at most retailers. The imported set is supposedly limited to 2,000 copies, so I would think that these won't last too long either.

 

Forum member SimonsSaysCake posted a waveform comparison of Living Loving Maid from 90's remasters with the new 2008 box set. As reported before, it seems to be the same source just slightly louder with more peaks chopped off. Too bad. The comparison is posted here.

 

Anyone know the catalog number for the SHM CDs?

 

Do you mean for the individual releases or the box-set?

For the box-set it is WPCR-13142.

 

The individual SHM-CD's have the catalog numbers WPCR-13130 through WPCR-13141 (with the two disc sets occupying two consecutive numbers).

 

By the way, whether or not SHM-CD's make a difference when playing back on a CD player compared to a regular CD (due to better readibility - if you believe in this), there should/would be no difference between the SHM version and the regular version if you rip the CD to a hard drive and play them back via a music server system, correct?

 

TH SHMCD is build with better polycarbonate layer. One of the problem with the Cd format is the polycarbonate layer thickness and the laser optical mechanism playing the audio direct from the Cd. You have to test two similar cd from your cd player to hear the difference. Checking the waveform on a PC will show the same data.

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but it does not really answer my question (maybe it does, but I don't understand it).

In other words, the advantage (if there is one - and I belong to the group of people who believe that things like pressing quality can make a difference) of the SHM CD format is only present when playing the CD in a CD player in real time.

If you rip the SHM-CD to your hard drive, you get the same file as if you rip the non-SHM-CD (if it contains the same data), so playing back the file from your hard-drive (not looking at wav-forms) with a music server system and a high-quality DAC will yield the same (superior) sound, since the CD with the "inferior" plastic does not need to be read in real-time (it is already read/ripped).

 

What I have learned in some test the only thing improved with the SHM Cd is the values of Q-Check C1/C2 (measures the quality of a pressed disc by counting the number of low level errors) and the beta value (asymmetry of short and long pits/lands)
Jitter does not change too much.
So If i am not wrong, the difference between a SHMCd with a regular cd is like when you compare a new made cd against a 5 or more year old cd with the same mastering. it is just about reading errors

 

As long as you secure ripped with EAC and had a 0% error rate, I don't see how there could be a difference. As long as both the SHM and non-SHM discs are using exactly the same masters, phase-reversed, the waveforms would cancel out.

EDIT: Apparently over in this thread http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=3922050 they're saying that the SHM discs are the Marino masters but more compressed.

 

Thanks. If that's the case, I can post a sample of the WPCR-13141 and the original crop circle mastering and folks can decide if one sounds better. I won't say which is which and I won't give my findings until after a number of people have listened for themselves.

Later tonight, I will post a sample of Hey Hey What Can I Do from the Crop Circle Box and the WPCR- 13141 CD. OK?

 

Yes, I saw that, but the only fact I have learned so far is that both versions are sourced from the same (1993/1994) analog to digital transfer.

And, that the SHM-CD's appear a little bit louder overall.

If that loudness increase is only a result of additional digital compression applied or a result of some other tweaks (e.g. maybe the did some EQ changes or whatever) remains to be resolved.

Anyhow, once the levels are changed (no matter of what change that result comes from), it is a different mastering in my opinion, in this case based on the same original transfer.

I read a lot of comments claiming that the 2008/2003 Led Zeppelin remasters sound different (many claim better) than the 1993/1994 remasters.

 

That would be cool.

 

As I said, I intend to upload a sample of the new set and one from the old, so that we can hear for ourselves. I'll do it as quick as I can.

 

And if the error correction which is part of the CD standard fixes all of these errors, then the bitstream going into the DAC is exactly the same.

If the bits in are exactly the same the sound out is the same.

If they sound different there is almost certainly a reason other than the SHMCd process. For example, the LZ are not the same as the earlier CDs - the SHMCd is louder. So of course this will sound different.

 

This info is taken from the http://www.cdfreaks.com about write quality:
----------
A written CD-R disc will always have some C1 errors; C1 errors are easily corrected by the drive’s error correction capabilities. The next level of errors is C2, while C2 errors could also be corrected by most drive’s error correction capabilities; they are not wanted on a good quality disc. A good disc should not contain any C2 errors, and preferably have an average C1 error amount of below 2.0 for the best discs, or at least below 10.0 averages for good quality discs. After C2 errors, there are only un-correctable errors that will make a disc unusable.
----------

A regular cd has a average c1 value of 4 or 5 and a SHM Cd around 2. Old disc and Cd-r around 5 to 10

 

You can download the following software and test the quality of any cd using the tab (Disc Quality):

http://www.cdspeed2000.com/download.html

For example, I just did a test with using the Audio Fidelity gold cd "The Doobie Brothers- Minute a Minute" and i got the following results:

General Information
Drive: LITE-ON CD-ROM LTN-4891S
Firmware: NGS3
Disc: Audio CD
Selected speed: 24 X
C1 errors
Maximum: 16
Average: 0.12
Total: 267
C2 errors
Maximum: 0
Average: 0.00
Total: 0
Jitter: n/a
Scanning Statistics
Elapsed time: 3:03
Number of samples: 2223
Average scanning interval: 1.00 sec
Glitches removed: 0

 

Sample One - Re-Titled "Hey What Can I Do" is 52 seconds - http://www.mediafire.com/?ndunbmzpt0i

Sample Two - Titled "Hey Hey What Can I Do" is 48 seconds - http://www.mediafire.com/?ltyljzjb1vm

Both are WAV and both start at the beginning of the song. One is longer, just so we can distinguish it from the other. Let me know what you think of these two.

 

I am refraining from identifying the clips until a number of people have had a chance to listen for themselves. For anyone who has listened and wants to know or guess at which is which, you can PM me. Otherwise, I will clarify which is which over the weekend.

 

I posted in the other thread:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3923812&postcount=135

By the way, can these two threads be merged to one thread by a Gort? That would make sense.

 

they sound exactly the same to me. maybe the second is a tiny bit better, i really can't tell.

 

Sample one has been downloaded 28 times and sample 22 has been downloaded 22 times. However, thus far only three members have posted their impressions of these samples. Can others please share their opinions/favorite of the two samples?

BTW, I recommend that folks compare the samples on their main stereo, rather than inexpensive computer speakers.

 

I've listened to both clips a bunch of times and can not really tell the difference between them. I'm listening to them with some decent Boston Acoustic speakers.
Maybe my cables (or ears) aren't good enough but I think both clips sound good and so close that I can not really pick a favorite.

 

Listening on my pc through headphones they sound identical. Identical.