KISS - (Music From) The Elder... thoughts?

When that album was released (autumn of 1981) I was just about getting into pop/rock music. I remember Kiss getting a lot of bashing in the German teenagers' magazines for the Elder. However, this was the first Kiss album I ever bought, and at that time, I liked only The Oath, Just a boy (btw a superb guitar solo!) and "I".

Within 15 years, the album slowly grew on me, as I understood what the story is all about (please consider as a non English speaking person, I had to listen quite closely to find out): A young man finding out who he really is, and finding his way in life. When I regocnized that this is the essential subject of the big epics (Odyssee by Homer and Aeneis by Virgil), my interest in the album grew even more.

Just a boy refers even to the typical epical sea storm (eg Vigril's Aeneis book 1). Under the Rose points out another important aspect of a story like this: To remain true to your destination, you have to make serious sacrifices. "I" finally offers the solution: the confidence has grown, the young man now is able to go down the road he had been chosen for. Ther next part in the story would have to be the Oath, I suppose, but why not putting the final step in the first place, as a prolepsis (correct word??).

I used to follow the track order of the original German vinyl, which starts with the Oath and ends with I. This order is on the original non remastered US and German CDs, too. Once your are familiar to the songs, a slight chance in the order provides a massive increase of excitement:
1. fanfare
2. the Oath (What a hammer, the heavy guitars crashing in right after the end of fanfare! But you need a player with very quick access to the next song).
3. Just a boy (this just has to be quite early in the order as the epic storm belongs to an early stage of the story)
and so on.

The only song that doesn't do much for me is Mr Blackwell. Escape and A world without heroes aren't my favourites either.

Conclusion: a fine album with an interesting subject, but completely untypical for Kiss, as this one's much more serious than the usual Kiss song.

 

2nd Kiss album I ever bought, after the Ace solo album on cassette. Enjoyed everything about it then, and I still like it now.

 

You either love The Elder or hate it.

I love it.

I don't think it would have been good for KISS to make a career out of this type of album, but I give them credit for trying something different, even though they dismiss it out of hand these days.

Which is the preferred version of The Elder, you guys?? Is it the international version that begins with "Fanfare" or the original US version that begins with "The Oath" and has a different track sequence. The US version has been out of print for over ten years as the remastered version restored the international version released everywhere else in the world.

While I grew up on the US version, the international version makes more sense in terms of pacing and the storyline. I held onto my original US CD, so I have both, though I can't remember the last time I listened to the US version. Probably well over ten years ago.

 

I guess I was so used to the US sequence that the original just never clicked for me. The Oath is just SUCH a great opener; I think the beginning sequence of th US is perfect.

When izgoblin bought the Japanese vinyl years ago, we had a listen and, while exciting, it just seemed a little off.

 

Does anyone dig the superb guitar sound that Ace has on this one? Never heard it before and certainly not after!

 

I can understand that. Usually the first version of something you hear tends to be your favorite. But The Elder was an album didn't click with me right away - it grew on me over time.

And when I heard the remastered version with the original sequence, it made sense to me. Like I said, from a story point of view, it had a better flow. But to each his own. Both versions are good.

 

Yep - great guitar sounds all around on this.

 

Yep I like the guitar sound of many Elder songs a lot, Oath and I (heavy) a boy (melodic solo), Dark light...but I am not sure how much of this is really done by Ace. IIRC I read that Ace's contributions were reduced to a minimum during the recording/mixing process, due to the growing tensions in the band, and he claimed that many of his solos had been cut out of the songs by Bob Ezrin. However, Ace's sound on Unmasked and 2000 man is not worse IMHO.

Also, I read that Eric wasn't allowed to play the drums on I, because his sound was said to be not correct for that song. Hell, is there any song Eric Carr would not good have been enough for? He was a superb drummer. RIP.

 

The reason Ace's contribution was diminished was he wasn't present in the studio during the making of the album. The tapes were sent to Ace in Connecticut, where he recorded his parts in his home studio. Then, the tapes were sent back to Toronto. Ace can complain all he wants, but he wasn't there to voice his opinion, as he was against doing The Elder.

Gene and Paul have actually said that in retrospect, Ace was right, but he couldn't articulate his dislike the right away, so Gene and Paul outvoted him and went forward, which pushed Ace further away. The Elder was the reason that Ace left the band, even though he didn't leave for another year.

Allan Schwartzberg was the drummer on "I." Ironically, he played drums on Peter Criss's 1978 solo album. Go figure.

 

i am not here to bash the band as i was a fan back in the day. but i dont deny that since the endless farewell tour and the band basically a brand. every kiss album has lost its lustre , especially a album like the elder that was an album that sounded best in small doses..

 

I think the old albums are as good as they ever were. I just don't bother going to see the Official KISS tribute band live anymore. I think it's a joke, too, but the classic stuff is still great.

 

Agreed.

I soured a bit over the years and took a break from listening (yes, KISS let me way down lately) but I can still go back and enjoy here and there.

 

I saw the band on the actual, ahem, "Farewell Tour" and the way I look at it - it was the farewell tour. It was the farewell to the original band.

This has to be the fastest-growing KISS thread ever on this forum!

 

In honor of this thread, I have pulled out my old vinyl copy of this album. I'm going to listen to it all the way through and then post some thoughts.

 

Sounds good - thanks for that!

 

It was released in May 1989. Not sure when the solo albums were released. I know it was before that.

 

Overall I like it more than I thought I would. I have the American version so my comments are in that order.

The Oath - Good solid rocker.
fanfare - I could live without.
Just a Boy - Very nice and melodic.
Dark Light - Nice tune from Ace. This one would have been easily at home on his solo album.
Only You - I like the echo effects on Gene's voice. Some cheesy lyrics but hey it's KISS, right?
Under The Rose - The more you change the more you stay the same? Come on guys... The chorus is cool though. Nice guitar solo.
World Without Heroes - This is a beautiful song. Always have liked this one. Very good on unplugged too.
Mr. Blackwell - No love for this song on this thread? I love this song.
Escape From The Island - Not bad. Sounds very much like solo album era Ace. Nice drumming.
Odyssey - Nice vocal effect. This a pretty good song but is it a good KISS song?
I - I DO NOT like this song. Is KISS really singing "I believe in me"?

Looks like I like more of this album than I remembered. It kind of loses steam for me at the end of side two however.

This was fun. Which album is next?

 

My random thoughts on The Elder:
- It baffles me when Kiss fans say this is their favorite Kiss record. That says to me that they don't really like Kiss at all and don't like what they were about. Because this record is exact opposite of what they were about. It's like me saying I'm an ELP fan and Love Beach is my favorite album.
- I get why they wanted to work w/Bob Ezrin again because he produced what was considered their best album, Destroyer, and they need that shot in the arm again. Plus he just did The Wall which was huge. I don't get why they thought that the concept, songs, and direction of the album was going to work in their favor and be a blockbuster for them. One listen to this album you can tell that something was off and that's it's no The Wall. Even The Wall, despite its concept and trying to tell a story across 4 sides of vinyl, there is basic rock, commercial ready songs on the album. The concept of the Wall is even way more complicated than The Elder and it still works better. The main thing is that Kiss is no Floyd. I don't want Kiss doing Mother and I don't want Floyd doing Deuce. The band was just so out of whack I think that no one was minding the store. I blame Ezrin the most for not reeling them in and saying "Look guys, most of these songs are awful." We need some simple rock songs on here."
-The album is just bizarre. I love the CK Lendt story where they had a listening party for the album. Paul, Gene, and Bob were way into it. When the album ended everyone just sat there speechless and didn't know what the heck they just heard.
-Ace does have some great moments on here. I think him recording his parts in his own studio left to his own devices helped out. I like the early version "Don't Run" better than "Dark Light."
-Yes, World Without Heroes is a great song. Too bad it's heavily dated by those keyboards. The Unplugged version is great. I like the orchestra backing on the studio version at least. Great solo by Paul.
-I think Kiss picked the right time to experiment if they felt that they needed to do this. They were out of the US spotlight for a couple years since the Dynasty tour. No one really knew this came out over anyways so I don't think it did that much damage as the damage had already been done by going disco pop on the last couple of albums. If they did this in 1977 it would've been incredibly bad and could've ended the band right there.

 

Just for the record, I decided to put on Asylum next.

 

Really? What was KISS about then?

IMO, KISS was and is about selling records, merchandise and concert tickets. Period.

I understand that you feel that this album goes completely against the grain of their previous (and later) stuff, but please be careful telling people what they do and don't like.

(I only made it through 3 songs on Asylum, BTW)

 

Shawn - I can't agree. I happen to like the music on The Elder. It's not about opposites... there are far stranger paths they could have taken. It's as odd as Unmasked was before it, but in a totally different way.

Or as Paul would say, "There's no reason you can't have steak AND cheesecake".

 

This album never blew me away, but was a solid effort; I heard the sound of a band reaching for something else, and that impressed me. They disowned this album and the Carnival Of Souls project....why did they reject such good material?




Dan

 

Sadly, I think they have distanced themselves from this album because that style of music is no longer in vogue. Also, it was not a popular album.

I doubt we'll ever see the day when they distance themselves from Alive! or Destroyer.

 

I just want people to read what I wrote. I am saying FAVORITE/BEST/ALL-TIME Kiss record. Just liking it is one thing, saying its the best thing they ever did is another.

I mean c'mon better than Alive? Destroyer?...please.

All IMHO of course.