is there a good current CD of miles davis "kind of blue"?

Does that one use the original cover?

I understand this is the one to avoid:

 

That was my first digital copy. It sucks bad beans.

 

Yes, it does:
http://www.kind-of-blue.de/seiten/boxen/miles_kob_box.htm
First one listed is the Japan 35DP. Front cover of the US CK 08136 is the same, back cover is just plain text.

That’s the CK 40579 from '86, and is an entirely different kettle o' fish! -15dB down at 10k compared to the 35DP. Seriously, not a subtle difference at all.

Be careful though. I have one with inserts indistinguishable from an 8136, with the 40579 mastering.

 

That's one way of putting it. The CK 40579 disc is just awful. Even before you listen to it, you have the wrong cover, with a picture that has the negative reversed. Then you have the electric blue back insert. Then you listen to the disc. Just an awful experience in every respect.

 

You have a disc that shows catalog number CK 08163 but has the CK 40579 mastering? What is the matrix code?

I have the Japanese CBS/Sony pressing and U.S. DADC pressing with catalog number CK 08163. The Japanese pressing has "35DP-62" in the matrix code, while the U.S. pressing has "DIDP-50062" in the matrix code. Both have the original 35DP 62 mastering.

 

Yep. This was a used one I found at Amoeba. All the jewelcase inserts are identical to the genuine CK 08163 I purchased back in the mid-80's. CBS logos. "Record manufactured in Japan by CBS / Sony Tokyo . . . " Bar-code: 7464-08163-2. CK 08163 on the spine.

The disc itself has the Columbia logo (not CBS) and cat# CK 40579 DIDP 70350. Matrix has: DIDP 70350 21A3. Has the "Made in USA - Digital Audio Disc Corp" impressed in the clear plastic.

This disc is different from a third one I have that came with the "left-handed purple" inserts. That one has the matrix: 1A CK40579 10 C3. Then has those really thick bare-code like dashes around the rest of the matrix. Nothing in the clear plastic.

The DIDP 70350 disc and the real CK40579 disc are bit for bit digitally identical, as reported by the EAC "compare waveform" function.

It could be that the 40579 mastering was released with the correct cover. Or it could be I got an 8163 jewel-case with a 40579 disc swapped in?

In any case, as you can imagine, it was a big letdown when I got the disc home. Something to look out for if your paying big bucks. Which, thankfully, I wasn't.

 

That's the same as the one I bought in the mid-80's; DIDP-50062. I am actually very please to have it confirmed for certain this is the same as the original Japan-made 35DP. (I was asking that earlier.) So, thanks! Certainly one fine sounding disc.

 

Oh, another thing to look out for. There are a few versions of that "left-handed purple miles" cover.

The US version is Columbia CK 40579. The credits read "Digital Remix Producer: Teo Macero. Digital Remix Engineer: Larry Keyes." These should all be US made discs.

The Euro version is CBS 460603 2. The credits read "Prepared for Compact Disc by Teo Macero. Enginered by Ray Moore. Digitally remastered directly from the original analogue tapes." I believe these are all made in Austria.

I have examples of both, and they are bit-for-bit identical.

Neither were actually remixed. Further, neither used the first generation original tapes. I don't know whether Mr Keyes or Mr Moore were even actually involved, but as Sckott so eloquently puts it the mastering job "sucks bad beans".

 

I'd really like to know what are the main differences between the original stereo mix and the later stereo mix. Can anyone help me on that? Am I missing something?

 

Steve, what did Sony do with the SACD version, mastering-wise?

 

The mono mix was done live during the session by Fred Plaut, with Irving Townsend producing. This is only available on LPs from 1959 to whenever Columbia dropped mono LPs in the late '60's. That would be either the "six-eye" or "two-eye" label designs.

The original stereo mix was done by Irving Townsend in 1959 from the primary three-track tapes to a stereo tape. All stereo LPs (with the exception of the Classic Records, and the new 50th anniversary) use this mix. The only place to get this on CD is the original 1983 Sony CD, and the 1986 "bad beans" CD we just went over.

The first re-mix was done by Mark Wilder in 1992 from the secondary three-track directly to digital. That is only available on the Mastersound gold CDs.

The second re-mix was done by Mark Wilder in 1997 from the secondary three-track to a new analogue stereo tape. Every post Mastersound CD, and the two LP exceptions above, is sourced from this re-mix.

For every mix you have the playback tape machine, the mix console, the recording tape machine, and the tape it uses. These all affect the sound, especially if you're comparing gear from '59 and '97. The mix engineer is responsible for adjusting the overall balance, or can even add things like echo, EQ, or compression. All that put together can have a greater effect on the overall sonic picture then a mastering engineer who simply transfers a stereo tape to digital.

Listen to all four mixes, and select the one you like best. . . .

 

I think someone pulled the switcheroo. It is unlikely that CBS/Sony ever sold the CK 40579 disc with CK 08163 inserts. That said, the disc you have with the wrong inserts is an early U.S. DADC pressing, so I suppose it's possible. Still, it's unlikely.

 

Where you quoted Steve he's talking about the mono tapes, which were only released on LP.

Mark Wilder actually stated on these very boards that he used his analogue re-mix tape from 1997 to do the original round of SACDs. The 1997 CDs were a flat transfer, the same era SACD had a very slight bit of negative EQ @ 20k or so.

The 2007 Japanese SACD apparently uses the same master as the 2006 mini-LP, which is also sourced from the same '97 re-mix tape. From what I can tell analyzing the spectral plot the '06 mini-LP has a moderate "frowny-faced" EQ, a couple dB rolled off top and bottom.

 

Somewhere out there is a left-handed cover, with the primo 35DP mastering inside, everyone be on the lookout!

 

Maybe someone liked the left-handed cover but realized that the accompanying disc sounded horrible and made the switch.

 

Take a look at these great videos of Glenn Gould recording at Columbia 30th Street, with Fred Plaut engineering. The comments in the 2nd part (link) about not turning a knob, mono/stereo, etc. are interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWW_JBGObxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dWLLM8eLoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MexK4POI5X4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jVvPatsvDY

 

... I love the 50's and early 60's Columbia mono CL vinyl, CL-1355 sounds wonderful ...

 

I don't think "re-mix" is the right way to put it, when in fact all that was done was to transfer a better 3 track tape (without speed problems) to stereo tape.

So, it is a new mix, but if it does not make any changes to the original mix regarding music edits or instrument placement, or by adding effects like reverb or whatever, then it's not a re-mix (this word implies major changes that, as far as I know, did not occur).

What can you tell us about the differences between the gear used in 59 and the gear used in 97?

Assuming both transfers to stereo tape are flat (I think Mark stated it was a completely flat transfer, if not, then it's not possible to have a 97 legacy CD being flat as you say), have you ever heard them and can you confirm that they do sound much different because of the hardware used to execute the mix?

Well, I don't know if that is entirely true... most of the times when we speak about compression and EQ, it is from the mastering phase, not the mixing phase. Sure, mixing can be done in a way that profoundly changes the sound of the source tape, by adding several artifacts and techniques (like compression or EQ, and many more).

Are you saying that this is what happened with KOB, meaning that Mark Wilder crippled the new 1997 mix/transfer to stereo by adding such things to it and thus compromising all mastering efforts based on a bad mix?

I don't understand this reasoning, sorry. And I'm really trying

Can you post some eac peak values for the original CD mastering? I have an old Made In Japan for Europe CD that should be it (CDCBS 62066 DIDP 10505 - 1986 CBS Made In Japan), but I want to make sure. I'll be comparing it to the 2006 DSD to see if I can find major differences in the mix (other than the speed issue).

 

I just compared my 2006 DSD to the JP For Europe CD (CDCBS 62066 DIDP 10505 - 1986 CBS Made In Japan).

It's quite obvious that the early press CD is much more rolled off on top and bottom than the DSD.

On the DSD cymbals actually sound like cymbals (pitch and attack to the percussion, as well as extension), which are clearly rolled off / muted on the other CD... they are way too soft and recessed on that one, completely unrealistic.

Also, there is much less echo/reverb added to the mix on the 2006 DSD. On the early press CD that I have it shows a huge amount of reverb added to the instruments.

The 2006 DSD CD sounds to me like the most clean ad less futzed with version. The New 2008 box version is quite similar but it was made to sound a bit softer (like the original mastering I guess).

 

I haven't heard that exact pressing. Since it's from 1986, and shares some of the matrix info of the Euro and US 1986 releases I assume it shares the mastering. It sounds like it from your description. If so, it's the worst Kind of Blue ever put out on CD. Massive treble roll-off, 15d down at 10k! If there is any consensus here, it's that this mastering sucks, big time.

http://www.kind-of-blue.de/seiten/boxen/miles_kob_box.htm

If you want to hear the original CD what you need is one of the first two listed here, the original 1983 Japan market pressings. Or one of two not shown on that page, the US market CK 08163 with either "35DP 62" or "DIDP 50062" in the matrix. Big, big, difference when compared to the 1986 mastering.

I don't know any details of who did the 1983 mastering. As a general rule those original CDs do not use EQ or compression, and usually use flat copy tapes from the Japanese vaults.

I'll repeat my offer to post the clips I used to analyze. They should cover all known CD masterings.

I understand what you mean. However I don't have another word to call it, so I say "re-mix". Calling it "mastering" won't work, because it's a step before that, and I believe more important. (Apologies to any mastering engineers reading. )

You're kidding, right?

Look, would you knock it off please?

I'm simply describing the different things that went on with this album over the years so folks can make an informed choice. So they have a better understanding of what the choices are for this title. I'm making no value judgments, just presenting facts. Not once have I told anyone what they should like. Several times I've told you to like whichever one you like, end of story.

Once, once, I said I personally liked the sound of the album as it was in 1959.

Would you please stop attacking me for making that choice?

 

I'm not attacking you... not even close...

I don't think it's useful that when a really excellent remaster is done these days, some people just keep trying to find ways to make it look bad.

The latest remasters (2008 box and 2006 DSD) are really great and offer a great sonic improvement regarding the other vesions released before that (such as the 1997 Legacy CD).

No compression or excessive loudness, no strange EQ (ok, the 2008 box is not as flat as the DSD but it's still great), no noise reduction, and you get the corrected speed... I mean What more can you ever want?

I was really pleased to see something done right, it's very rare these days!

People who love good music and good sound should be raving about these releases...

By the way, peak values for my CDCBS 62066 DIDP 10505 - 1986 CBS Made In Japan KOB CD:

Track 1
Peak level 99.3 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC 5D58AAE0

Track 2
Peak level 99.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 1FBCDDAE

Track 3
Peak level 60.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 444BCECA

Is this the "really bad" CD mastering you are talking about?

 

Is the Japanese SACD from 2007 a different mastering than my American Sony?

My KOB SACD sounds great. I like it better than my Mastersound Gold.

 

My Japanese hybrid SACD (Sony SICP 10083) has the same DSD mastering as the OOP 2006 Japanese mini-LP sleeve CD. The remastering was done in 2006.