Is The Ringo on Drums Version of "Love Me Do" on Past Masters at the right speed?

The 1982 needle drop remaster that EMI did for the 20th Anniversary 12" EP disc was different from the needle drop done earlier for the Rarities Album. Supposedly a collector provided a better, quieter copy to dub from. However they still hosed the mastering and EQ, so you need the original 45 to hear a good playback of it. Maybe Dr. Ebbets' is also good - I've never heard his.

 

Sppokily enough, I seem to remember EMI saying the collector's name was Raymond Jones - the same name as the guy who asked for the record My Bonnie in Brian Epstein's NEMS record store in Liverpool.

 

FYI, according to Spizer, the original Capitol Canada 45 of Love Me Do was mastered from a Parlophone 45.


Evan

 

I didn't consider that a separate mastering since it was from a needle-drop of the Parlophone 45. But since the 1980 & 1982 "masterings" are also from needle-drops, I guess it is...

My brain hurts...

For the sake of comparions though, shouldn't the original UK 45, US Rarities LP and PM1 be sufficient?

 

I realize that Ron, but I'm trying to find what the proper speed is based on a known quantity, namely the Andy White version, which comes from a tape and presumably does not have any speed issues. The one constant between the two versions is John's harp, which should be the same. The two versions were played in the same key with the same instruments, so you should be able to deduce whether the speed is correct or not.

That being said the PM version is 1.7% faster than the Dr. Ebbetts version. You can easily tell the difference between the two, so it's not a subtle point. I know that the pitch (of the harmonica) on the PM version is too high, and that the Dr. Ebbetts version is too slow. But I wouldn't mind nailing down what the proper speed should be.

 

Why are you focusing on the Ebbetts version? The original 45 is the reference. A comparison to it renders all other discussion moot.

EDIT: Ooops. Sorry, I missed your last sentence.

 

Wouldn't that just be a kick in the butt!....
If it was the same dude.

 

I think it now generally considered that "Raymond Jones" is/was just myth created by Brian Epstein. There was no such person. But it made for great copy.

The 1980 master was done from a 45 provided by fellow forum member Ron Furmanek, IIRC. The source for the 1982 needle-drop? Don't know.

 

Well, Ron, the PM version is audibly at a higher pitch than the Andy White version. I can't say it any more plainly than that. The only reason I even got the Ebbetts needle-drop was because the PM version sounded fast.

I'm not saying that the PM version isn't at the correct speed; at this point I really don't know. But it is definitely at a higher pitch than the Andy White version. There's no doubt about that.

 

Hey, we're making progress For a second, forget about the pitch of the harmonica. When playing along with a properly tuned guitar or bass...BOTH official versions of Love Me Do, regardless if they are on CD or LP, play correctly, in the key of G. The version of LMD on PM is not faster than Ebbett's, his version is slower. I can't play in tune to his version, so it makes sense his version was "mastered" too slow. Both versions of Love Me Do....whether on CD or LP play properly in the key of G. Ron

 

They did it to save money.

 

I think it's not so much the tuning on Paul's bass as the intonation, on the Ringo version. That high 'G' note Paul plays on the song (think the first note of the song, for instance), always seems to be a bit sharp then as it decays it seems to correct itself (if you get what I'm saying). I think he had the Hofner's neck re-adjusted between the two sessions.

To me, the 'E' and 'D' notes and the 'C' on the chorus always sound in tune, but that 'G' on the 1st version....whew. I hear it everytime, too sharp to begin with. Also, to me the Ringo version sounds more country or folk tinged, whereas the Andy version sounds more pop (and it is just a hair faster, too, not much, maybe two beats a minute faster).

If you tune a guitar or bass, here's how you check the intonation. Play the string, make sure it's in tune. Then chime the octave note of that string on the twelfth fret (pluck it like the first bass note of 'I Feel Fine') and check it's tuning. As I understand it, if it also appears exactly in tune on the tuner first time around when it's chimed, for all six or four strings in turn, then the intonation is exactly correct, and the neck does not need to be adjusted. Hofner basses must have had that problem with the neck going out of whack a little bit tho, just due to use-listen again to the first note on 'I Feel Fine'.....hear how it's a bit sharp then seems to correct itself?.......

 

I hear the problem with Paul's intonation on the Ringo version. But I hear it on the Andy White version too. That G he plays on the first note is too sharp even on the Andy White version. The difference between the two versions, IMHO, is that Andy White's bass drum "locks in" better with McCartney's bass. A much slicker sound. I bet George Martin preferred it. Note how McCartney's bass syncs up with what Andy White is doing - this makes any intonation problems (other than that first note) much less obvious because the compression is pushing McCartney's bass back into the mix (since it has to compete with the bass drum more).

As for the differences in pitch on the Ringo version - to my ears the PM version is somewhat higher than the Andy White version and Ebbett's is slightly lower. Maybe they're both wrong! And yes, I read Steve's comment back on page 1.

 

Yes, Paul's bass did have some intonation problems...Hofner's often do. Omce they started making money he could have this addressed from time to time, prior to that, he probably had no idea of the problem. Be that as it may, Paul's A-string is out-of-tune on the Ringo version....it's the second note, the D, played on the 5th fret. Along with the intonation problem that makes the opening G note sound slightly sharp, the following note is slightly flat.

To my friend Raul...The PM version sounds slightly faster than Ebbett's version, but I assure you it's playing at the correct speed. If you know someone with a guitar have him or her play along to the PM version. If the guitar is in tune, you can play along in key, but not play along with Ebbett's version it won't sound right. And I admit it appears the PM version is faster than Andy White's version, BUT one can play along to THAT version perfectly, in G, as well. The timing of the two versions is basically the same too...the fade on Ringo's version is a few seconds longer. Ron

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. To my ears, the PM version is slightly, but clearly pitched higher than the Andy White version. I think the answer may lie in something you posted earlier:

See, a 1% difference is very noticeable to me. I had a friend whose turntable was about 0.5% slow, and it drove me crazy. I heard the Clash's debut album for the first time on his rig, and that was the speed that was imprinted on my brain, and when I listen to it now at the correct speed it seems fast to me.

 

I have lots of guitars. At first I was very sympathetic to your position brainwashed. After all, why should the EMI needledrop have been done at the wrong speed? That is, until I started comparing the tracks closely. That's when I noticed that the PM version is a little sharp, and the Ebbett's is slightly flat. But the PM is sharper than the Ebbett's is flat, if you see what I mean.

Then I digitally superimposed first the Ebbett's, and then the PM, over the Andy White version. Oddly the tempo of the PM version is almost identical to the Andy White version, but the difference in pitch is obvious with both versions playing. The PM version is sharp compared to the Andy White version. Admittedly the differences in pitch are small, and would probably go unnoticed by most people unless they could hear the versions superimposed.

Being relatively new around here I realise that I might need to back this stuff up, so here, if you dare, is what the combined PM and Andy White versions sound like (intros only):

Andy White and Ringo (Past Masters) Love Me Do Superimposed

 

Nice analysis HMV. One question though, how can the tempo of two different recordings be "almost identical" but the difference in pitch be obvious? As I mentioned, even the timings of the two versions are nearly the same, except for a few seconds longer fade on Ringo's version. This seems to be a conflicting statement, since quite obviously vari-speed wasn't used on either recording. If you have the ability to digitally superimpose material, boy do I have an experiment for you Ron

 

Why not? In terms of the pitch question here, tempo differences between the two recordings are meaningless.

 

Why are we even concerning ourselves with the tempi of the two recordings? The issue has nothing to do with how well the two versions synch up. For now, the topic has shifted from the original "Is the PM version at the correct speed?" to "Is the PM version at a higher pitch than the Andy White version?" HMV's superimposition proves the latter statement incontrovertibly.

 

Different takes, Ron. What lukpac said.

BTW, Ron, you're not going to ask me to sync up "She Loves You" and "Sie Liebt Dich" are you? Or do you have something else in mind?

 

Do you disagree with EVERYTHING I say??? It's not meaningless in this example because some people claim the PM version of Love Me Do is too fast. This CAN'T be true because the song is in the proper key. If it was mastered from a 45 playing too fast then it wouldn't be in the proper key AND the tempo would be slightly faster (the song length would not be approxiamtely the same time either). Also, LMD was re-mastered TWICE using 45 rpm records and BOTH play in key. For another example, try comparing the World Wild Life version of Across The Universe to the version on Anthology. Same basic recording, but the Wild Life version sounds fast (pitch is fast), plays fast and the tempo is faster. This is easily proven because one can't play along to the song in it's standard key and the song timings are different as well. Ron

 

Too fast compared to what? The PM version is at a higher pitch than the Andy White version. Without another mastering of the Ringo LMD to compare the PM version with, any discussion of speed is irrelevant.

Faster compared to what? These are two completely different performances. We're not comparing two masterings of the Ringo version here. (Let's forget about the Ebbetts needle-drop for now.)

Let me put it this way: If the Ringo version had been in the same key as the Andy White version but six minutes longer and played in waltz time, we could still have a valid discussion about whether a needle-drop of it is at the same pitch as the Andy White version. Would you still be worrying about the timing then?

Well, there you go. Those two versions of ATU are the same basic recording, and therefore timing differences are absolutely relevant. The Ringo LMD and the Andy White LMD are completely different recordings. Any timing similarities between the two, for the purposes of this discussion, are purely coincidental and totally irrelevant.

 

Ron, the PM version IS in a different pitch than the Andy White version. Listen to HMV's clip and you can easily tell that - assuming the same harmonica was used for both recordings a week apart - the harmonica on both tracks are not the same pitch.

I have come to the conclusion that the PM version is slightly fast, and the Dr. Ebbetts version is slightly slow (both by about the same amount). I have come to that conclusion based solely based on the pitch of the harmonica. There is no other guideline that can be used in this case.

I do want to add, that having compared the PM LMD and the Dr. Ebbetts LMD, I became curious about P.S. I Love You, Please Please Me, and Ask Me Why. I compared the three tracks to the versions on the PPM CD, and PSILY and AMW play at the same speed (based on the precise timing of the tracks), but PPM is 1% too slow (also based on the precise timing of the track).

 

Hmm. I'll have to check that out. Does it never end???

I made a little discovery myself. I just got a needle-drop of the US Rarities version of LMD. Surprise! (Well, maybe not so surprising ...) It's at exactly the same pitch as the Andy White version!

I think we can now safely say that the PM version is indeed too fast. As for getting the best sound quality, in my opinion the thing to do is speed up the Ebbetts needle-drop from the UK Singles Collection to match the pitch of the Andy White version as closely as possible.

 

And in case anyone is curious, I raised the pitch of the Ebbetts LMD from the UK Single Collection by 13 cents. This seems to be the proper amount to have it match the pitch of the Andy White version, and also to match the pitch and timing of the US Rarities version. I used Pro Tools LE with the Pitch Shift plug-in, making sure to deselect the Time Correction option so that there will be a corresponding speed-up.