Is SONY pulling the Plug on SACD??

I'm sorry Jon but this not true. SACD is alive and well. They are averaging 80-90 titles a month and I have more discs on my wish list than I can buy.

http://www.sa-cd.net/additions.php

(note: September is an incomplete month so the total is still adding up...)

Plus, look at the quality of upcoming releases...Elton John, Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Fanasy jazz, Pink Floyd Animals, etc.

SACD is not mainstream but that's a good thing as we get widespread audiophile support and better sonic quality releases.

SACD is doing fine...think of it as a MFSL with better sonics and deeper selection for the 2000s!

 

I am speaking in terms of wide acceptance. Sure, SACD is coming out with Jazz and Classical titles. Great, but that ain't gonna cut it. Following your link, there are 5 pages of "new releases". That sounds good, but as you browse the titles, I find that there are only 2 that I would classifiy as high profile titles. The Ray Charles and the Marvin Gaye. That's it. Sure, I LOVE Ella and Louis, and there are some cool "Living Stereo" titles, but how many will sell. How many will be in your local CD store? And how many of them are from SONY???

As far as DVD-A goes, there are far and few between, so as I said, DVD-A is no champion of Hi-Rez. It's not a format war, it's not anti-SACD to say that there is a severe lack of "good" titles.

Try this:

List the amount of "Good titles" from each year -

2001
2002
2003
2004

I will be you that 2004 loses BIG TIME, for BOTH FORMATS.

That is the best indication of all regarding these formats. Harry Fox or No Harry Fox.

:-jon

 

Is it just me or are these threads the same every time...

"SACD is dead!"

"Nah, it's just not being pushed!"

"DVD-A is the answer!"

"SACD is THRIVING, there are 500 releases slated for next week!"

"DualDisc is the way to go!"

"What are DualDiscs?"

etc, etc, etc...

 

The market is as confused, fragmented and sided as this forum. Consider the bases for argument including equipment and the pros/cons of each idea...software snagged in legal fees....

I'm NOT surprised.

 

SACD prices went up to about $17.99 at Best Buy a few weeks ago. And, the numbers of their DVD-A discs are shrinking.

At this point, it's still easy to find affordable hi-rez players. You see the Pioneer and Samsung players in all the major audio retail stores.

 

I'm loving SACD just as much as the day I got my first player back in '01. I plan on taking the jump to more serious DVD-A in a few months with probably the Denon DVD-3910.

I don't care what wins or stays. I happy with the several dozen hi-rez discs I've bought, and will be able to play them for a long time coming.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you --- and, you're welcome.

 

here's something I came across today on the Afterdawn forum - controversial I'm sure, but sure to provoke debate...

"Can I add the following points?

1/. The only energy above 22KHz in DSD is noise. Lots and lots of it.

2/. Noise shaped signals cause huge difficulty in multichannel mixes.

3/. Binary coded PCM is the most efficient recording format possible. DSD is the least.

4/. DSD bitstreams cannot be processed, EQ'd etc, as when they are they are no longer single bit data.

Also, by design, the upper frequency limit of DSD is 22KHz. To borrow a quote from Mr John Watkinson, "all the subsequent gonads about phenomenal bandwidth came from the same people who brought you the emperors new clothes".
In PCM mastering, the sound is captured at any suitable sampling rate and resolution, and all production is performed at this same resolution throughout. Only at the final step is noise shaping & bit reduction carried out, which is the correct way to use dither & noise shaping. When using DSD, the noise shaping is there from the start in the original material, and this just makes life difficult and will inevitably result in loss of resolution.

SACD?
Sad Alternative to Compact Disc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

www.opusproductions.com
Digital Audio Specialists"

 

p.s. I still love my SACD player

 

August 31st 2004 – After five years of providing education, technical and operational support to the music industry, Sony Europe has announced the next evolutionary development in its support for SA-CD. With over 2300 SACD titles released and by the end of this year well over 10 million SACD players in the market, the music industry is now in a position to establish SA-CD on a commercial basis.

http://www.superaudio-cd.com/news/newsitem.php?id=33

 

Jon, this is too negative a view. No one is claiming SACD will reach mass acceptance. In fact, this appears obvious without any major push like the Beatles catalog or some unforeseen event...but what we do have is an incredibly rich and sonically wonderful niche format. That makes me very happy as a consumer.

I don't think this is true except for some implementations in chips. The format can extend well beyond 22khz is my understanding.

As for noise...academically we could argue it really cuts in above 30khz, but that may be an argument for another day. John Atkinson, myself, Mark Levinson, and many others have not been able to ever hear these noise problems which are pushed out well beyond the audible range. On the other hand this same group of people hear real limitations of PCM up to 24/192khz. DSD is a more elegant math solution IMHO because it requires a less complex recording chain than PCM.

False. I know and work with some of the better audiophile engineers. None of them, even the hirez PCM supporters (nobody I know likes Red Book by the way), would claim that DSD introduces distortions or noise in the audible range.

Notice Boead that there is not a claim for mass acceptance here, just one of "commercial basis". If you talk to the major high end retailers they will tell you that Super Audio continues to be among their strongest sellers.

 

audible range

"As for noise...academically we could argue it really cuts in above 30khz, but that may be an argument for another day. John Atkinson, myself, Mark Levinson, and many others have not been able to ever hear these noise problems which are pushed out well beyond the audible range."

In the case of John Atkinson and Mark Levinson "out beyond audible range" is likely anything much above 12khz.

WVK

 

Maybe so, but it is a realistic view, mostly taken out of frustration, because I wish that the racks were FULL of real, "gotta have" titles that could be played all day, not just a few scattered "Oh, I think I'll get this and try it bacause nothing else has come into this store for 2 months" titles.

It's almost like we were teased, then had the "stuff" taken away. A few years ago, there were SACDs and DVD-A coming out routinely, good stuff, day and date stuff, and now.....

Well, it's just damn disappointing, that's all. There are a ton of players out there now, and the software bins at the local stores have that look of abandonment to them.

Here's hoping this all changes....................................

 

You would have thought that the industry would have smarter about releasing two formats from the Beta/VHS experiance. Especially since Hi-res is an enhancement of a format (CD) that 99% + of the folks are perfectly happy with.

And what about Bass Management? How many have 5 full range speakers? Unless I am mistaken you still have to spent at least $400 or $500 to get a universal player with proper bass management.

WVK

 

If Sony was R-E-A-L-L-Y serious about SA-CD you'd think that they'd quickly neogiate a settlement with the Harry James organization and release 20-100 discs a month...?

Notice how many labels don't seem to have a problem with publishing rights, hmnn????

 

Mostly all of the labels have a problem with publishing. Labels like Abkco don't have that kind of pressure for obvious reasons....

 

Re:#1 There is no reason that this must be true and DSD's noise floor doesn't really start getting out of hand until a good deal higher than 22k. But yes, when it kicks in, there is lots and lots of it.

Re:#2 I'd like to see an explanation of this one. I can think of no reason why the six channels of DSD would necessarily be more troublesome than two in any way that six channels of PCM or analog wouldn't be more troublesome than two.

Re:#3 Sigma-Delta modulation exists specifically because it can be MORE efficient than PCM, this is the only reason to jump through all the hoops necessary to make it work. Knowing this statement's context would be helpful; but standing alone, it doesn't make much sense.

Re:#4 This is true.

 

Interesting comments... I quoted those tech comments from the other board because I hadn't come accross those arguments before - I'm not knowledgeable enough about sound engineering to critique them. It is perhaps noteworthy that the author of the comments is working for a firm that specialises in DVD-A authoring - which no doubt makes him an expert, but also highlights potential format bias...

 

Since Steve and the mods don't mind the debate here, and this is contained to a thread that was contentious from the very post due to it's nature (I hate it when format debate enters a thread about specific albums), I'll post the following observation:

Speaking of sales charts...

I have so many times heard the 'truth' of consumer demand for DVD-A being much, much lower than SACD...a small fraction, even.

I don't buy it. How many times is there a single release available in BOTH formats, at the same time, and then reported sales numbers to show how each format is doing? When? Never, that's when.

Now, finally, Bjork is released in all three formats, simultaneously, in Europe. Now, I've heard time and time again that in Europe, the buying public is even more biased towards SACD and against DVD-A than in North America. Yet last week, on the Amazon UK sales charts, the Bjork SACD 18th on the charts, and the DVD-A was 38th. Both obviously very high movers. This week they've slipped to 27th and 48th, about 10 spots each. Not only that, but the SACD is also the deluxe CD, with deluxe packaging, expanded artwork, and a poster...all for only a £ more than the plain-Jane CD. So how many of those SACD buyers are really just buying the deluxe CD? In fact, in the search listings, BOTH are labeled as Audio CD.

Yeah, no market for DVD-A. No consumer demand.

Anybody who wants to claim that DVD-A demand is a sliver of that of SACD ought to show some real, comparable sales numbers a title released in both formats on the same day. Both might suck completely; I don't see any real consumer demand for either format, at least not yet. And I don't see either dominating the other yet, in that regard. This game is far from over. And there may not ever be a winner, only losers. Except for us, the admittedly tiny audiophile niche, because at least we are often getting some good stereo remasters, and sometimes a cool surround mix.

As for me, I'll keep buying both formats. When an album comes out that I want in high-res and/or surround, I don't give a damn which format I need to buy, just give me the music! Like Jon, here's to hoping for the number of releases to grow substantially.

 

Figures have been shown. Demand for DVD-Audio is extremely weak.

 

Don't focus on the publishing rights issue. It only exists in the US, but in Europe SACD isn't more successful without this problem.

SACD is only established on the classical market, for which it is ideal: new multichannel DSD recordings that take the maximum out of the technology. For new classical releases sold at full price, I would now expect to get a SACD. Several smaller labels have decided to release single inventory hybrid SACDs and the bigger labels are slowly following.

As far as new pop recordings and jazz/pop/classical reissues are concerned, I don't see a bright future for SACD. Pop fans expect video material to come with new formats, and the reissue market is already saturated with deluxe remastered CDs and box sets, which many collectors consider to be the definitive digital versions. As most reissues are sold at mid price ($9-12), it's very hard to convince buyers to get a $15-20 SACD version that only shows it's advantages on very good hifi systems.

 

Please show me comparative sales figures for albums that were released at the same time in both formats.

 

Tough to sell stuff when IT IS NOT RELEASED!!!

 

Labels like Telarc & Heads Up, Groove Note, Chesky, DMP, and many other smaller labels manage to release regularly. What do they do? ...actually negotiate, or what? IMO, Sony has a policy against actual negotiation. Can U say market bully?