Indian instruments - Love You To

Hey, Ron.
You're still the man with the track info ready

I'm just confused, my friend- Do you not hear harmony at all? Or does the harmony not sound like Paul to you?

If there's a possibility that you're not hearing ANY harmony listen close to the line "but what you've got means such a lot to MEeee eeeee eeeee eee. That long "me" has definite vocal harmony. I've always thought that was Paul.

Peace Love and out...and back India
Marky

 

I only have the mono mix on my iPod here at work, but I do hear a harmony part that is unlikely to be the cause of ADT. The only problem I have with that "harmony" being Paul, is that since Paul's vocal was done early in the recording and there was at least one bounce, they would have had to mix out Paul's vocal in the early stages of recording and not in the eventual mixing of the song and leave out just that bit. It's possible they did that, but it seems like an odd choice to make early in the recording process of the song.

BTW, Marky. Is there no end to the creative pool of sigs?

 

Interesting. Maybe it was a convolution of "Love To You" then.

 

Thanks Another Side I'm always afraid I could dry up at any moment.

Anyway- do you or Ron know if that McCartney vocal was erased or mixed out (deleted is such a digital word)? If it was mixed out- then they may have mixed it "in" on the word "me."
If it was completely erased, is it not possibly an overdub added later?


SOMEBODY did that harmony (and it wasn't ADT) and it sure sounds like Paul. It's that same sound quality I hear on songs like "Something" and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps." If there is no mention of someone adding a vocal harmony in the track sheets and if it also claims that Paul's vocal was completely erased- then there is definitely an error in the track sheets.

Peace Love and...uh...anybody got a sig?
Marky

 

I don't know. I've been reading the quote from Lewisohn's book. And it seems ambiguous as to when the bounce happened in relation to the recording of the McCartney background vocal. But typically George Martin would record bass and drums on one track, guitars on another, vocals on the third, and he would leave one blank in case he needed it. If he had to bounce, it would be because he had used three tracks already. Also the Harrison vocals have to be on two tracks because of the use of ADT, plus they are one on each channel, IIRC. That would leave two tracks for everything else, so my guess would be that the recording of the vocals happened after bouncing. In that case it would be pretty hard for the McCartney background vocal to have survived at that stage, since it seems perfectly synchronized with the vocal, which was recorded later.

Just my theory. Someone pipe in, if you see it differently.



BTW, this is a quote from George Harrison in 1980 regarding Love You To:

"'Love You To' was one of the first tunes I wrote for sitar. 'Norwegian Wood was an accident as far as the sitar part was concerned, but this was the first song where I consciously tried to use the sitar and tabla on the basic track. I overdubbed the guitars and vocals later."

 

Paul did two vocals. He sang along on the basic takes 1-6, harmonizing with George on "me...." and "see...." He sang another vocal on take 7 that wasn't used, Lewisohn says specifically it was on the lines "they'll fill you in with all their sins you'll see."

A separate track wasn't required for ADT, that was done during the mixing by feeding the vocal through another tape machine and back into the mix, adjusting it with a variable oscillator. The three tracks on the tape that they used in the final mix are at mid left, just right of center and far right. Those are the only three pan positions on the stereo mix (other than the ADT'd vocal and acoustic at far left) and that's all there could possibly be if they didn't use TRK 3 of the tape in the final mix: far right has the vocals (George and Paul) and acoustic from the basic take (possibly two George vocals), and at mid left you have the sitars, tabla, fuzz bass, and tamboura (if there is one), all of which we know are overdubs onto take 6 prior to the reduction mix. That leaves whatever is panned just right of center as the only possible overdub onto take 7, and there isn't any George vocal there, it's just tambourine and the volume-pedaled fuzz guitar.

The other possibility is that TRK 3 wasn't used on RM3 but it was used on RM1 and RM2. Since the final version is an edit of all three, this is how they could have mixed out Paul's unwanted harmony and left in something else (George's other vocal maybe?).

-Steve

 

Have y'all listened to the 'Yellow Submarine Songtrack' mix? It has stereo separation of the Indian instruments.

 

Sometimes it's difficult to figure out just "how" the Beatles/George Martin recorded, bounced and mixed. If Lewisohn's notes are correct, then George "added another" vocal onto take 7. It may have been a double-tracked vocal, harmony or both. I definitely hear a harmony vocal there and assumed it was GH, but then again I thought George sang the harmony part on All My Loving...so who am I to know .

I listened to both the mono and stereo tracks...the mono is a little longer during the end coda, more sitar and tabla. The vocal mix is different in stereo, ADT split on both channels. That tamboura sounds really strange to me...is it possible that the fuzz bass was mixed with tamboura in an attempt to create a different sound altogether. To complicate things more, during the finale, the tamboura sounds different than when it drones during the rest of the song.

The quote about Love You To, by George sure seems to indicate it was he playing the sitar. Surely by 1980, he would have given due credit to a session musician if that was the case. Cheers, Ron

 

Hi Steve,
I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts but I'm at a loss when you say things that I can't find documented....such as Paul singing harmony specifically on "me" and "see"....it's not documented as such...is this your opinion or do you have an alternate source of info other than Lewisohn? I posted my last response before reading your new one....IF there is a tamboura on LYT, is this where some (including you and I) also hear the fuzz bass? I always thought it was a volume pedal on a guitar....but I guess Paul could have played his bass through George's tone pedal. It just doesn't sound like a tamboura....except perhaps during the ending. Ron

 

Ron, this is my area of expertise. You guys gotta trust me on this one. It IS a tamboura. It is a classic tamboura sound. No guitar, bass or fuzz pedal can imitate it that perfectly. Any way of getting George Martin or Mark Lewisohn to join this forum?

Peace Love and Martin & Lewisohn
Marky

 

This is even more confusing, since Lewisohn says the basic track used for subsequent overdubs (take 6) consisted of George singing and playing his acoustic guitar. I do think it's interesting that George says he overdubbed the sitars and doesn't refer to anyone else having played them.

Marky, when you refer to the tamboura, are you talking about the "pedal" part or the "fuzz" part that is played throughout, mostly on one note (though it does vary).

Jason

 

Hi Jason!
The fuzz guitar is only used on the choruses. You'll hear the Bb fuzz chord come in on "Make love all day long...."

This tamboura on the other hand drones throughout the song (starting right with the tablas) and it's the only instrument making any sound on the breaks. By "breaks" I mean- "but what you got means such a lot to (break) MEeeee eeee eeee eee." You hear it droning very clearly there, yes?

It's the droning sound consisting of 4 strings tuned to maybe 2 or 3 notes. There is a piece of twine down at the bridge (under the strings) that must be postioned just right to get the sizzle sound on each string.

Peace Love and Twine Daley
Marky

 

Isn't the drone on Tomorrow Never Knows also a tamboura?

 

I always thought that sound was that little accordian type thing you see Indian guys play. The one that sits in front of them.

 

Hey Marky,
I always bow to the feet of an Eastern mystic . I think I'm just confused a bit still. I believe I can hear the tamboura drone throughout the song' however; is the fuzz bass where I hear the groaning "wahhh" in parts of the song? Or is this too a tamboura? One thing is for sure I have a new-found appreciation for this track.....this happens a lot when we all dig deep into a song and dissect and analyze. By the way, the closest I've come to playing a sitar is a nifty 1968 Coral guitar/sitar hybrid I used on a few tunes back in the 70's....fun stuff!!!! Ron

 

Ok I just wanted to be clear on what you were referring to, I was a little confused on what I was reading. I agree, that does sound like a tamboura, and there was almost certainly one present at the session. The photo on page 209 of the Anthology book is one of the Leslie Bryce photos for Beatles Book Monthly taken 14 April 1966, showing George and some unidentified person looking thoughtfully at a tamboura.

What I want to know is why tabla are present in some of these photos. I doubt Anil would have left his behind. Anyone have any ideas?

Jason

 

Well, the tamboura provides the drone to establish tonality but the function of the sympathetic strings is to add a resonance to the note or notes being played. They are tuned to the raga or tuned chromatically so that when a note is played on the main strings the corresponding sympathetic string (or strings) resonate. It's gives the sitar that amazing resonant sound. If you took those off, that would be one lame sounding sitar.

 

I've listened ot the stereo mix (both the Songtrack and Revolver versions), and I think I have pieced together what is on tracks (assuming that one of the tracks is not used - the numbers are mine and not those of the actual tracks).

Track 1: sitar (or two), fuzz bass, tamboura, tabla, bass? (mid-Left)
Track 2: vocal, background vocal?
Track 3: acoustic guitar, tambourine, electric guitar (hard right)
Track 4: unused

So if we are to take Lewisohn at his word, then take 6 must have contained everything that is in Track 1. Then the other two tracks must have been recorded after the bounce onto take 7. This means that the background vocal must have been done at the same time as the vocal and mixed into the track with the lead vocal. The background vocal could not have been recorded before, because it would have had to have been part of the bounce, which is mixed mid-left. This is not usually the way George Martin worked, but it is possible.

I welcome of course any corrections to what my ears are hearing.

 

Hi Ron, I'm just going by what Lewisohn says (although he's not always correct as you've pointed out): "with Paul supplying backing vocals" on the basic take 1. On "me" and "see" is where I hear Paul come in. This doesn't necessarily mean that he sings on the rest of the takes, but Lewisohn specifically states that his "high pitch harmonies" on take 7 were left out of the mix, therefore this vocal has to have been from the basic take. FWIW Walter Everett says the vocal overdubs by George and Paul on take 7 "replaced earlier efforts," but I don't agree with this.

I'm interested in what you tamboura players hear as the tamboura. Where is it at in the stereo mix exactly? Far right on the YS Songtrack remix is where I hear the fuzz bass and 2nd sitar, is this sound what you're referring to as the tamboura? During the refrains I hear the volume-pedaled guitar, but that's not constant, it's only during the refrains. The only time I can pick out that drone is during the "me-ee-e-ee" parts, and it sounds sometimes like it's centered and sometimes like it's on the right.

-Steve

 

Hard right on the cv I hear acoustic guitar and vocals. Hard left I hear this track doubled via ADT. Mid-left I hear the sitars, fuzz bass, and tabla (and tamboura although I have a hard time picking this out), and just right of center I hear the tambourine and the fuzz guitar during the refrains. The Songtrack mix syncs up takes 6 and 7 so I find it a bit difficult using it to try to sort the tracks out, but the above three have to be what was on the final three tracks, based on what we hear on the final stereo mix (if indeed only the three tracks were used, it could be only RM3 where TRK 3 wasn't used). Lewisohn doesn't say how many tracks take 6 was reduced into, whether it was one or two. If George is playing take 1 with acoustic guitar and singing with Paul backing, then wouldn't this have been done for take 6 also, otherwise what would the tabla, sitar, tamboura, fuzz bass and fuzz guitar have been overdubbed onto?
-Steve

 

No, take 1 would have been on a completely different piece of tape than take 6 (or takes 2 through 5 for that matter). Take 6 is the basic track, and that has the initial overdubs. My guess is that they had to have bounced everything onto one track, because of what Lewisohn says about the overdubs done onto Take 7.

I don't hear the acoustic guitar with the vocals, though. I only hear a very tinny sounding acoustic guitar with the tambourine.

 

Take 6 is the basic track, and there were overdubs onto take 6 also, so all of that would have been reduced to one track in your scenario. Except that George sings and plays guitar on the basic track, and that isn't panned together with the sitar, tabla, etc in the stereo mix, it's at far right (again using the cv only and not the songtrack because that's a sync of two different takes). Unless George wasn't singing and playing the acoustic on the basic take any more by the time they got to take 6?

 

George in all likelihood would have done a guide vocal, but that would not have been kept. It's also possible that the acoustic guitar was either not part of take 6 or was not bounced down onto take 7. Another scenario would be that the original vocal (and guitar) was bounced separately than the other instruments and eventually erased, but that seems unlikely from what Lewisohn says.

 

I would kill for a Classic Albums DVD treatment of Revolver!!

 

I hear the vocals ADT'd split left and right with the acoustic guitar. I've had a theory about this guitar for awhile, impossible to confirm but I'll state it here nonetheless. An Epiphone Casino, like George, John and Paul played during this time, is a semi-hollow body guitar that has some acoustic properties and sounds "tinny" as you say when not amplified. I've got a Casino and it does indeed sound similar to this rhythm guitar sound on Love You To when played acoustically.

Jason