It used to happen. Capital did it quite a bit in the early days of stereo according to Steve. I am sure other labels did the same for awhile.
All labels did sessions that way. Live mix to mono, with all echo, compression, EQ live as it was happening. The session was edited and the mono master extracted from the session reels. The other machine was the three or four-track machine. The tape was edited to match the mono and then REMIXED or "reduced" as they used to say down to two-track adding ANOTHER layer of grunge, echo, compression, etc. This is why the MONO versions of older music sometimes sound much better than the stereo mixes..... It wasn't until the fall of the unions and the rise of rock & roll that most studios stopped recording to instant mono and started mixing both the mono and stereo versions. End of bedtime story, kiddies!
Steve, If you had been completely in charge of this SACD, I assume you would have had a mono layer. But what would you have done for the stereo?
The stereo layer? I would have used the original Phil Ramone two-track mix, played back flat on an Ampex 351-2 vacuum tube reproducer. The original stereo two-track tube mix just has more natural body than the three-track work part IMO.
I got a copy of Getz/Gilberto on CD today with the "proper" channel orientation! Someone on half.com had a sealed copy for $9.99. The disc looks very similar to the one Raxel showed. My copy is not from Columbia House, but I think it is a newer pressing than Raxel's disc. For one thing, my disc does not have the DIDX code in the inner ring and is not stamped with the DIDY code either. Also, all indications are that this CD was made in the USA, not West Germany or Japan (or "Blank Space"). The catalog number for my CD is 810 048-2. The spine has the word "STEREO" in white within a bright yellow block. At first, I thought it had sit in the sun and faded, but both spines have the bright yellow. It's awful in my opinion. Of course, my first test was to listen to "The Girl From Ipanema". Sure enough, Astrud Gilberto comes from the left channel. Great! I have to give credit to all of you who contributed to this thread. Without your unending willingness to share knowledge, I would not learn about the history of these great recordings. Thanks!
Such a fun thread. And such a great album. It really holds up. My wife just loves listening to Stan Getz taking breaths before his phrases. You can really hear it on the right versions. Very lifelike. I wish I could play like that....(I wish I could play Sax period... )
Steve, which versions do you consider to be the "right" ones? Are any digital versions "right"? For what it's worth, I am happy with the SACD and the old Verve CD I got recently. I don't have Getz/Gilberto on vinyl.
All of them are ok really. I've just heard that master played back on a vintage machine and it really does bring the album into focus for me. Sometimes old is good!
Getz/Gilberto is one of those recordings where everything seemed to click. Starting with the inclusion of Astrud on vocals and the happenstance that brought the Gilbertos and Getz into the studio together.
The following is excerpted from Phil Schaap's Technical & Discographical Comments appearing on the last two pages of the 21 page booklet that accompanies Verve 823 611-2, Stan Getz: The Girl From Ipanema, The Bossa Nova Years. Based on the text in the major portion of this booklet, this collection may have previously appeared as a multiple LP set. The bold typeface below is my emphasis. Offered for further discussion.
Getz/Gilberto --- Verve LP Steve said: QUOTE]The correct placement (on the master tape) is for Astrud to be on the left and the drums on the right. When Ami Hadani cut the ORIGINAL stereo LP master at Radio Recorders in 1963, the channels got reversed somehow and that's how engineers have been mostly doing it ever since for some reason. The East Coast Rudy Van Gelder copy master cut follows Ami's lead. Steve, my copy of Verve V6-8545 has Astrud on the left. The deadwax includes "63-VGS-360-RE-2". Do you know whose version this is since both the Hadani and Van Gelder versions have her voice on the right? Thanks, Steve
Hi Steve, Well, you have a recut, that's for sure. It's an MGM era Verve label though, correct? If it was cut later on in the year, the mastering engineer might have recut it with the channels in their correct placement without realizing it. Or it could be a record club recut (not a bad thing, it might be fine). Is there a RVG in the deadwax somewhere? If so, it's a Van Gelder. Are the numbers stamped or hand written? If stamped, it's a Radio Recorders/Ami Hadani special. If hand written, who knows? The main thing is, how does it actually sound? If it sounds wonderful, it's a keeper. If it sounds dull and unmusical, it isn't!
Geez now I'm starting to panic. I hate to issue ultimatums but Steve you better remaster this on vinyl or someone better tell us which versions are the ones to get. Aaaaaaaarghghghgh. has anyone compared the original pressings (what ever that may mean in this case) to the speaker's corner reissue? Is there more than one version of the mono pressing? If so which one is the one to get.
I have about 25 pressings of Getz/Gilberto, mostly the stereo version. NO TWO CUTTINGS ARE ALIKE. Remember, this was a (unexpectedly) big album, and it was probably mastered many times in that first year of release; maybe 8 times! Since they are so cheap out there, it's possible to buy multiple copies of the LP and search for a good one. I've never actually heard a wonderful original, just average sounding copies, but I'm sure they are out there somewhere. I've seen them for $5.00 each usually....
I'm not much of a jazz fan (ok, that's a *huge* understatement), so I surprised myself by wanting to hear this recently. Probably because of all of youse guys discussing it so much. I found I had a mono copy, pressed by Capitol (it even has a Capitol record number, though it's on the black Verve label) in my "B" collection, which is LPs I've picked up somewhere or another and haven't had time to listen to, or haven't decided whether to keep. I put it on quite softly late one tired night with the lights down, and it was very very nice. But also very scratched in places. So off to Best Buy where they had the SACD. I was annoyed to find that it's a single layer disk, but bought it anyway. I was hoping for (but not really expecting) greatness. In the event I was a bit disappointed. It does sound pretty nice, but lacks that great tube sound that's on the mono. Surprisingly, though, I found the stereo to be too distracting. This is dreamy music and the discreteness of the instrumental placement was calling too much attention to itself. Plus Astrud sounded so forlorn stuck all the way over in the right speaker. (If they were going to remix, couldn't they have pulled her into the center a bit? But maybe she was sharing a channel with the guitar.) So now I'm just *thinking* about the Speaker's Corner LP. Was it made from the original 2-track master, or is it also a remix? BTW, how come the bassist was the only one uncredited on the LP?
You didn't read this thread? Shame on you! http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11139&highlight=Getz/Gilberto You have a Capitol Record Club version by the way.
I heard this album first a few years ago when I got the CD and liked it very much. However recently, I was given a mono Verve pressing in not too bad shape and it sounds very warm.
Just thought I would add to the list of CD's with the correct mix of Getz/Gilberto I found recently, Smooth jewel case CD spine has the word stereo in white in a red block on the left then Stan Getz/Joao Gilberto then catalog# 810-048-2 on right Barcode on back 0 42281 00482 7 Made in West Germany Disc is, Center text is Verve records Getz / Gilberto underneath is Getz / Gilberto, Stan Getz / Joao Gilberto Silver to hole with all black text Blocked stereo GEMA on right, blocked 810 048-2 & Made in W. Germany by PolyGram on right as well Bottom center has IC0383 Matrix info, 810 048-02 07 *ec Made in W. Germany by PDO Hanover Very nice sounding disc if you find one? with the correct mix.
Geez, reading this old thread, now I'm more confused than ever. Seems there was one CD issue with the correct (AG on LEFT) stereo orientation. Correct?
Let me add, the SACD has two versions- the album version, with AG on right, and one marked the 45 rpm version, with her on the left, though not as far as she was on the right.
Steve, why was the mono mix recorded at 30ips (which shifts the head bump up an octave altering low end response)? Any particular reason that speed was chosen or was this simply standard procedure back then?
