Genesis Remix v. Orignal Clip...

Somebody over there named "pool_of_tears" recently (today in fact) told Nick to "not let the detractors get you down" and to "keep up the good work" (among other, not so positive things about the SH.tv members) so it's all very confusing!

Of course, they don't have the box set yet. . .go figure.

Best,
Josh

 

double talk?

 

I have no difficulty seeing how the masses at large could prefer these mixes.... cos tehy are louder dood check it out.

What I do have difficulty understanding is how ANY member of sh.tv could actually, honestly prefer these mixes to any previous mix. I know we don't all have to think the same, but isn't this forum on the front line of the loudness wars? Isn't what holds us altogether a general consensus that we like our recordings to have space, depth, and detail? And don't these new mixes basically embody everything we are against?

 

Okay all you smart (gotta get them on your good side ) people. . .I have a question:

How does this amount of compression and limiting affect the 5.1 channel mix? Jamie, I think I recall you saying on the main Genesis SACD thread that you thought that the 5.1 mix was "great". Is it just the affect of spreading the compression/limiting out over 5.1 channels or was less compression/limiting applied to the 5.1 mix?

Thanks in advance!
Josh

 

They aren't as crammed together. He had 5.1 channels to work with instead of just two. Don't know how to explain it other than that. I do think the 5.1 mixes are good. They're not Elliot Schiener quality by any means but they're certainly better than those horrible Police, Sheryl Crow and Yes (Fragile) 5.1 mixes.

 

Maybe it would pay to make a 2-track remix in PT from the the 5.1?

 

That was me and I will NOT deny a word of it. I didn't say anything "not so positive" about anybody here. I didn't say one word derogatory about anyone. You want to talk about no so positive? You should have seen what was said at the old forum about some of us here. I digress, I am not going into it further.

I see both sides of the situation. There are some here who can be really picky about their sound quality. And there's nothing wrong with that. I sometimes wonder how the really fanatical audiophiles enjoy anything when they analyze everything. But hey, that's just how I see things. I don't get that in depth. Others do and that's ok. To each his own. For example: I may hear the same exact song as someoene else but I don't have the same perception.

That's right, I did say to Nick to "not let the detractors get you down" and to "keep up the good work" Why not? Why should someone feel degraded because some don't care for his work. My viewpoint is just as valid as the next person's.

So what if i don't have the set yet. I have bigger priorities than that. I'll get it when I choose to do so. If I like it, then I like it. I may even post about liking it I happen to like it. And I won't use a smilie hiding under chair either. There is one thing i've learned here: trust your ears.

As for the person who said "double talk", ha! I don't take sides. I see both sides of the coin...positive and negative alike. There's good and bad with everything. Mind you, it's not confusing.

 

Without getting too far into the topic of...um..."footwear"...The 1977 gigs in Southampton, Sao Paulo and Zurich are all worthy.

 

The 5.1 mixes are pretty good and the main reason I bought the SACD set. If you like 5.1, get these for those mixes and then just listen to your preferred version in stereo.

 

I have a hunch that the notorious compression artefacts will come to the fore if you downmix to stereo.

 

Yes, there is a lot of fanatical overanalyzes here but these remixes, short of that disastrous Animation CD, are *the* definition of hack job. I'd be completely ashamed and embarrassed about these mixes if my name were attached to them. Nick is so much better than this.

So you've not heard them? I guess that's the only way one could suggest Nick should keep up the good work.

 

There is no NEED for being a fanatical audiophile in this case. The differences are startling. I would hope that anyone with even a smidgen of concern for sound quality would hear these and know how bad they are.

 

My ears hurt from listening to the second and third samples which sound brittle and harsh. Thanks for the heads up!

Bob-

 

I've heard bits and pieces I'd like to hear them all to make a judgement.

I'd like to make one thing clear in case some people took my post the wrong way. I wasn't trying to be derogatory towards those who tend to be picky about recordings. if I came across that way, I apologize.

After all, if you're the one who's buying the cd/ LP, etc...you're the one who has to enjoy it. Coming to this forum has been a real education for me. I'll say this much...I tend to collect and trade shows and 9 times out of 10 it has to be an FM, pre-Fm from a transcription LP or cd or a soundboard. Otherwise, I'm, not interested. See, I'm just as picky...about stuff that usually will not sound as good as the stuff in stores.

I said keep up the good work as a positive thing to say I suppose. I'm really anxious to hear Live, Seconds Out & Three Sides Live in 5.1. I like Nick's work...We Can't Dance has a great mix. My first Genesis cd too.

 

Truly startling clips, Jamie. I knew it was bad...but wow... Once you hear it while reading all the destructive forces you had to add to get it that harsh...dang.

I agree too that Nick Davis has never failed to impress me until this box set came out. I've defended him for quite some time in that regard - it's just baffling to hear these mixes compared to the brilliance that is We Can't Dance or even the 5.1 DVD's of the '92 tour.

 

Nick I know you won't be reading this because you aren't here, but I walked into a Borders yesterday and looked at the Genesis section. The original mixes were gone. It was almost heartbreaking. If you want constructive, stop being destructive. You took the mixes we Genesis fans already like, and destroyed them. They are gone from the shelves. Those very original mixes are in fact the reason so many of us are Genesis fans. It isn't just about the performances contained within them. If that was all there was to it, the world wouldn't need mixing engineers in the first place. Any microphone would do, any room would do and any playback system would do.

How is that stupid of me to have this opinion? It seems to me your view of this forum and its members opinions was rather valued until your own work was criticized. I would of thought that somebody bold enough to think they could take legendary and historic mixes of such a famous band and make them better would not be so easily fazed.

 

Before even coming to this thread, I listened to a clip of "Evidence of Autumn" over at CDUniverse. The remix that I heard in that 30-second clip convinced me to keep looking for an old domestic US CD version of "Three Sides Live." Why was the piano part replaced by a guitar line???

So, hearing this clip supplied by Jamie didn't surprise me; but it sure disappointed me to no end. I am in total agreement with Dave W S above.

 

I don't have an any issue with the idea of remixing - if the end result is clear and sounds dynamic. The way the remixing was done was faithful to the original mixes while bringing out some new interesting bits. I can't say the new mixes would have beat the old ones, but if the SACDs had the sound quality I was hoping for, the remixes would have been a winner in my mind. My complaint is with the terrible 2 channel sound, not the mixing choices.

It would be the noble thing to do, though, to keep the original mixes in print.

 

Well then let's have the band re-record a vocal part or a drum part that was a little off. I'm guessing those fans over at that Genesis site would not like that. Engineers don't get enough credit in my opinion. This is 1976 we are talking about. Hardly the dinsosaur age of mixing. These guys knew what they were doing by and large, especially the ones mixing big name acts. It's a done deal, why play God?

I'm sure a lot of engineers look back and see things they would of done differently and that's understandable. I'm also sure a lot of artists look back and wish they had played something differently or used a different tone on their amp etc.. What a horrible mess it would be if all of these people went back and changed mixes, instrumentation, vocal parts etc...

In my opinion it shouldn't be the cd mastering engineer's job to try and create a new album from out of the music, which is what Nick Davis tried to do.

This seems to be the new catch phrase Nick Davis and the Genesis camp likes to recite- faithful to the original mixes. It's an oxymoron. If it ain't the original mix, it ain't faithful.

Tasteful eq adjustments to the master tapes are about the only thing I'd want to happen on a cd mastering. Leave the mix alone.

On paper, yeah, we'd all like to hear every little detail, but bringing everything to the forefront of a mix doesn't work. It sounds like crap.

Here we are in complete agreement.

 

I like the following bit from the above article:

"The new masters are being used in England". If that is true, some of the UK made Virgin/Charisma CDs should have the Barry Diament mastering!

 

I think that may have been stated too quickly at the time. None have surfaced, as far as I've heard.