Genesis Remix v. Orignal Clip...

I wonder of this has been detected over at the $35/year Genesis forum?

 

Kind of how I feel about the Yes fan site...and I'm a regular postedr over there! Looks like I made the right decision by not signing up to the Genesis forum!

I'd have gotten banned for how upset I am over these remixes. Most of my Gabble bandmates agree...

I haven't had the time to really appreciate the UK vinyl I've found over the last few months, but I sure have been enjoying the old V/C and Atlantic/Atco CDs.

 

Jamie,

I love that sarcasm! The moment the new site sprung up this spring ($35 dollars and all) many decided NOT to join. The old site that started in November (after the original cashed and burned) was just fine. The only thing that keeps me @ the forum is the possibility if a new or unearthed show coming out in the trading circles. Then again, I am close with those who unearth these so there's no need for me to hang around much longer.

All this talk about the old Atco cd's on Trick and W&W has me very curious!

 

My thoughts exactly!

What a catastrophe Jamie.

 

Don't forget the cotton to stop the bleeding.

 

Hi Jamie,

Thanks for the post and samples.
The waveforms Koptapad put up were scary enough
( http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=115822 )

In the samples you've supplied, I hear an album that had a somewhat painful treble to begin with. It sounds like it was remastered by someone with a significant enough hearing deficiency that they felt the need to pile on more treble. But what's really scary is that no doubt someone else had to approve the final remastering.

Maybe those folks should use speakers with tweeters?

I haven't even spoken about the not-so-great dynamics of the original. So, of course, in the pursuit of level uber alles, we see waveforms where any remaining semblance of musical or sonic dynamics has been successfully eradicated.

A sonic travesty.

One way to make older masterings, done on older equipment and earlier generations of digital gear sound better than it ever could have, is to remaster the way these are being done.
The old "And Then There Were Three" will no longer sound so trebly and thin by comparison.

Paul Haines wrote it in his lyrics:
Better a lot of what's wrong, than a little of what's right.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

So can I presume that Nick Davis is no longer hanging around? I know that he expressed feeling hurt when some of us criticized the streaming online samples prior to the release of the CDs. What must he be feeling now? I wonder if he believes that the mastering ruined his mixes, or if he knows that he's responsible, or if he thinks we're all daft? I wonder if the criticisms here will affect the sound quality of the other Genesis CDs when they're released?

J. D.

 

I'd love to know he's heard this clip though. I really don't think he understands the problem. Can anyone post a link to this thread over at the Genesis forum?

 

I could do that

However...There'd be serious drawbacks to this. First, they simply wouldn't understand. Second, people would be up in arms about such a thing. Everyone over there thinks "remaster is better". This would end up being locked or deleted. There's a 16 yr old kid over there who is an audiophile. He's commented on hearing clicks and the use of NR in the DE remasters...by did he ever get raked over the coals for it last year. I stood up for him because:

1. No opinions is more or less valid than the next
2. I feel the same way
3. Nobody even attempted to understand his point of view, much less respect it.

 

To be fair, The Music.com has done a great job with Peter Gabriel and The Who live cd's, so I don't see why we have to pre-suppose that they will be bad.

As to the remixes, I've stayed out of all this, but mine just arrived and now I'm scared to listen to them. Is it the only the two-channel mixes that are under fire, or are the surround mixes as bad?

 

That was my high-school yearbook quote, believe it or not...


You mean the first part of that clip was the actual CD release? How embarassing. "Trick of the Tail" is one of my favorite Genesis albums, and so I got the "Definitive Edition Remaster" and after ten minutes of THAT, went to ebay and got the album. Ahhh....

But to be fair, I did hear a tiny finger cymbal in the CD that I wasn't picking up from the album. One positive aspect, anyway. But overall, the sound is comparable to cupping your hands to your ears.

 

What's wrong with a soundboard recording? If the mix is good, the recording can sound very good. For example, there are several 1977 Genesis soundboards that walk all over Seconds Out. There's more power in the mixes and Hackett's guitar is far more up front...the way Seconds Out should sound.

 

Thanks Jamie. Confirms what I heard within the first 10 seconds of Dance on a Volcano. What's been done to these cd's is truly beyond atrocious. i don't understand how anyone who's heard this music before (lp, original cd, DE) could find these even remotely listenable. That's just my opinion, of course.

 

This thread is being discussed on the progressive rock forum at progressiveears.com. And someone posted this quote from Nick, which I presume was posted on the Genesis forum

-----------------

Nick Davis:
i run this forum for the people on this board and i have stopped reading the hoffman site due some incredibly stupid comments by some of the members.
there are people there who have valid comments and i found constructive and informative but unfortunately there are also people who are just either rude or do not have a clue what they are writing.

-------------------------

So now we know what Nick thinks.

J. D.

 

I do believe the pot hath been stirred

 

We know more than you think, Nick. The ears tell the story..

 

i posted this in the genesis forum in the thread over there that contains the June 07 issue of the sound and vision magazine interesting review thread in the Genesis General forum area

http://www.genesis-music.com/members/community/mboard/index.php?topic=4625.msg84692#msg84692


seems the review in sound and vision --- Interestingly, nothing mentioned about there being too much compression/ limiting as some have passionately argued.

anyway, its on that website for the moment. It was my first post there, i'll probably be banned. hahaha

 

There's a thread on the Nick Davis section of the forum called Mastering/Compression which is where Nick Davis originally posted his comment about the stupid people over here. For kicks I posted the link to this thread and nothing else (no text, just the link). Stay tuned, we'll see if I get any bites (as long as Nick doesn't delete my post first). Nothing like stirring the bees' nest a little.

Wow, I'm no recording engineer, but those numbers are downright scary.

Jamie, thank you for putting the clip together. . .very informative. Unfortunately, it's also extremely depressing. To my ears, "squashed" is a perfect adjective for what I heard (besides harsh of course). Nevertheless, the opportunities to learn at SteveHoffman.tv never cease to amaze!

Best,
Josh

 

I guess it's too each their own ears. I tried to keep an open mind when I got the box, but even my wife, who's not a music fan, heard the 5.1 of ATTWT and said, "What the hell is wrong with the speakers?". I kid you not, as Phil's vocals dropped at the start of "Follow You Follow Me!"

And 2 more boxes to go . . .

 

What confuses me is Nick's previous work was always pretty amazing, and I'm tough to impress. I really love the stuff he did with XTC. It sounds fantastic as does his previous Genesis work. His mixes on We Can't Dance are truly inspirational to me, brilliant in fact.

Why did he change his style for this project? He went from large, full sounding mixes with impressive depth and definition to harsh, shrill, small and overly compressed. Was he trying too hard? Seems to me when I spent too much time on a mix things get very dense and compacted simply because of ear fatigue. I'm guessing that's where the extreme EQ came from. He was trying to better those original mixes by making them have more impact (compression) and wider fidelity (EQ). Unfortunately, we hear the result and it's just too much.

The big question is will he remix We Can't Dance and Calling All Stations in this new style of his? He'd have to just to make them fit in with the rest of the catalog's new sonic signature.

 

We Can't Dance is my all-time favorite album. I cannot tell you how devastating it will be for me if the same treatment is applied to that album.

 

Maybe it's possible that this project was extremely rushed in through a very small time frame? I wonder how long they actually took to remix these albums?

 

I wonder if the next set will be better.. Doubt it..

 

The later Genesis albums had little or no cymbals on them (Phil having adopted this approach after working on Peter Gabriel's record, and his own In The Air Tonight) so I think the changes will be less offensive to those of you are are offended. I'm just guessing of course. I don't work for Genesis nor am I a member of their website, so don't kill me.

But, it seems they were trying to bring out the detail in the drums and cymbals with these remixes. The old mixes ARE a bit muddy in that regard. Again, don't kill me.