Genesis - early CD versions thread

I'll try to remember to do it. Problem is, I'm always at my store and when there's a lull in business is when I do my Forum stuff. All my S/T's are at home except for that Japan Virgin.
I also have Lamb V/C's pressed in four different countries and I'm gonna post all the values for those tomorrow.

 

Looks like your copy corrects a misplaced Track Start. On my V/C and Atco copies Fly On A Windshield and Broadway Melody Of 1974 are joined together, so Track 3 is simply 32 seconds of quiet music leading into the start of Cuckoo Cocoon. This is something that I hadn't noticed before (and no else seems to have mentioned it either). I bet your copy puts the Track Start between Fly and Broadway?

 

I checked and track 3 starts on this one right at the "Echoes of the Broadway..." vocal part.

 

Understood, no rush

 

Okay, I have copies of the V/C Lamb set pressed in four different countries: West Germany, Japan (Sanyo), UK (Nimbus), and Austria (DADC).

I put them all through EAC for peak value testing and they all came out exactly the same for all 23 of the tracks.

That makes things easy. If any of these weren't included in the original entries, then I guess the thread starter can add one or more of them.

Tomorrow I'll show the readings for S/T. To say that that release isn't as cut and dry is an understatement.

 

I got a regular Uk pressing of Invisible Touch and the only difference on the disc is the inner hub reads "786360 2 @ 4" and not etched "2-4-6-NL". Also the disc says "Manufactured in the UK" I did this just to make sure my Dutch pressing is a clone of the UK: the EAC says they are the same. I'm guessing maybe now all the original Virgins of Invisible Touch are the same since Lazlo's Japanese disc matched up.

Black Elk: my Virgin Records GEN CD3 of We Can't Dance matches up with your EAC and I think it is safe to assume that the remaining 3 tracks match too (since the levels are nearly identical for every track!)

97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.2 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 % - 97.3 %

Matrix: 786330 2 @ 3

Disc face says "Made in Holland" but again I think it is safe to assume it matches up with the UK pressing and perhaps all the worldwide pressings match for this one.

I'm going to guess again that all the "Calling All Stations" pressings are the same too.

So once we get the other versions of S/T ripped, seems like we'll be set!

 

Genesis S/T

Ok, here we go guys.

I have eight versions of Genesis S/T: US Atlantic, WG Target, WG Vertigo red swirl, WG Vertigo blue swirl, Virgin Japan, UK V/C, UK alternate V/C, and Holland V/C.

I couldn't find my Vertigo blue swirl but I was able to test the other seven. Here they are:

US Atlantic:
Track 1 Peak level 88.3 %
Track 2 Peak level 75.6 %
Track 3 Peak level 66.6 %
Track 4 Peak level 76.7 %
Track 5 Peak level 77.7 %
Track 6 Peak level 82.9 %
Track 7 Peak level 75.4 %
Track 8 Peak level 78.3 %
Track 9 Peak level 85.0 %

WG Target:
Track 1 Peak level 79.5 %
Track 2 Peak level 66.9 %
Track 3 Peak level 64.6 %
Track 4 Peak level 100.0 %
Track 5 Peak level 86.4 %
Track 6 Peak level 66.6 %
Track 7 Peak level 95.1 %
Track 8 Peak level 91.3 %
Track 9 Peak level 88.9 %

WG Vertigo Red Swirl:
Track 1 Peak level 79.5 %
Track 2 Peak level 66.9 %
Track 3 Peak level 64.6 %
Track 4 Peak level 100.0 %
Track 5 Peak level 86.4 %
Track 6 Peak level 66.6 %
Track 7 Peak level 95.1 %
Track 8 Peak level 91.3 %
Track 9 Peak level 88.9 %

Virgin Japan VJCP-3118
Track 1 Peak level 99.5 %
Track 2 Peak level 98.1 %
Track 3 Peak level 89.3 %
Track 4 Peak level 99.0 %
Track 5 Peak level 99.2 %
Track 6 Peak level 98.8 %
Track 7 Peak level 99.1 %
Track 8 Peak level 98.9 %
Track 9 Peak level 91.5 %

UK Nimbus V/C
Track 1 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 2 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 3 Peak level 44.3 %
Track 4 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 5 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 6 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 7 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 8 Peak level 47.8 %
Track 9 Peak level 45.4 %

V/C alternate w/modified vertigo swirl design
Track 1 Peak level 79.5 %
Track 2 Peak level 66.9 %
Track 3 Peak level 75.6 %
Track 4 Peak level 100.0 %
Track 5 Peak level 86.4 %
Track 6 Peak level 66.6 %
Track 7 Peak level 95.1 %
Track 8 Peak level 91.3 %
Track 9 Peak level 88.9 %

Holland V/C
Track 1 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 2 Peak level 97.6 %
Track 3 Peak level 90.5 %
Track 4 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 5 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 6 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 7 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 8 Peak level 97.7 %
Track 9 Peak level 92.8 %

As you can see, some very different masterings here. Quite odd how many variations there are. And this excludes the Japan first issue and the blue vertigo swirl!

There looks to be five different masterings, six to be technical. The WG Vertigo and WG Target are the same (I'm actually surprised at that). And the V/C alternate is the same as those two with the exception of Track 3 (Home by the Sea). That single track has values different than any others.

So, there you go. Next task, compare them all with my ears and decide which is the one to keep.

 

Thanks for posting those

Including my EMI Swindon, I think we have 6 distinct CD masterings here. Is this a record for the Genesis CDs out there? I think the max we saw before was 4 or 5 for a single title.

And it doesn't look like any of these are level adjustments of the others either...

 

Wow! Just tell me which one to get!

 

Trying to unravel the mystery that is Genesis S/T, I've made some observations based on yesstiles numbers...

Wasn't this issued in 1995? This could be the same mastering as the Definitive Edition Remaster from 1994. The peak levels are very high, which might indicate a later remaster. Could anyone post the peak levels from their 1994 Definitive Edition Remaster?

If you multiply any of the peak levels above by 2.044 (approx. 6.2 dB), you get the peak levels below (with the exception of Track 2 -- off by 0.1%). I'll bet these are the same masterings once they are level-matched.

That leaves us with at least 3 distinct masterings or as many as 5 (depending on how you look at it):

1. US Atlantic
2. WG Target/Vertigo
3. UK Nimbus V/C level-matched to Holland V/C
4. V/C alternate w/modified vertigo swirl design (only Track 3 is different)
5. Virgin Japan VJCP-3118 (may be same as Definitive Edition Remaster)?

 

Well, there's the rub. There is no such thing as a Definitive Edition Remaster of Genesis S/T. The DE's stopped at Abacab remember?

 

Yes, now I remember. I await your listening test results to see which ones are keepers.

Thanks,

Bill

 

From Genesis To Revelation - DCC

Track 1
Where The Sour Turns Sweet.wav
Peak level 65.7 %

Track 2
In The Beginning.wav
Peak level 82.4 %

Track 3
Fireside Song.wav
Peak level 65.3 %

Track 4
The Serpent.wav
Peak level 90.2 %

Track 5
Am I Very Wrong.wav
Peak level 68.4 %

Track 6
In The Wilderness.wav
Peak level 87.4 %

Track 7
The Conqueror.wav
Peak level 92.0 %

Track 8
In Hiding.wav
Peak level 96.9 %

Track 9
One Day.wav
Peak level 85.1 %

Track 10
Window.wav
Peak level 62.5 %

Track 11
In Limbo.wav
Peak level 87.3 %

Track 12
The Silent Sun.wav
Peak level 78.7 %

Track 13
A Place To Call My Own.wav
Peak level 46.5 %

Track 14
The Silent Sun.wav
Peak level 80.6 %

Track 15
That's Me.wav
Peak level 73.9 %

Track 16
A Winter's Tale.wav
Peak level 64.8 %

Track 17
One Eyed Hound.wav
Peak level 63.9 %

 

Also there is my EMI Swindon copy

97.7 % - 97.6 % - 90.5 % - 97.7 % - 97.7 % - 97.7 % - 97.7 % - 97.7 % - 92.8 %

Which is matched exactly to the Holland V/C. Now it is curious why the Nimbus is different than the Swindon, considering they are both done in the UK.

 

Black Elk: Thanks for compiling the numbers. It's taken a very long time to crawl through the various threads, so your effort to summarize by EAC readings is extemely helpful (too bad I didn't find it first).

One of the mysteries I'm questing about today is trying to piece together whether I need to go hunting for the WEA Abacab disc (the V/Cs are extremely rare around here). I have a disc that has identical peak readings as your disc with a JVC designation, identified as level-shifted in your first posting of the Abacab numbers. Here are the details (yours first):

US Abacab - 19313-2 (800044-2), matrix = 19313-2 1T1 1
100.0 % - 100.0 % - 95.1 % - 96.3 % - 100.0 % - 97.8 % - 69.8 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
Printing on CD: MANUFACTURED BY JVC DISC AMERICA CO. MADE IN U.S.A.

US Abacab - 19313-2 (800044-2), matrix = 19313-2 S4E 17 (not sure about the last two b/c etched in the disc)
100.0 % - 100.0 % - 95.1 % - 96.3 % - 100.0 % - 97.8 % - 69.8 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
Printing on CD: MADE IN JAPAN

It is my understanding from yet another post in another thread that the MADE IN JAPAN printing is one of the earliest pressings (and that is followed up with a "Manufactured by JVC" in the booklet). This is backed up by the receipt tucked in the booklet, which lists a purchase date of 9/25/86.

Perhaps I should just go listen to my compressed Atlantic Gold instead of trying to figure this out, but has anyone confirmed in that this version is only a level shifted version of the WEA disc, and not an earlier mastering? Or based upon dates, perhaps the WEA disc is a level-shifted version of the MADE IN JAPAN mastering? TIA!

 

Great work, guys! I'm having fun just lurking and observing.

I sure wish I could do level-checking on my mac like you do. EAC does not have a mac-equivalent (or does it?)

 

Black Elk, could you add the DCC In The Beginning numbers I posted to the earlier post in the thread? Or does a Gort need to do that?

 

The eternal question. I've asked the same in a few threads. Apparently not.

 

An Intel-Mac is the answer, I guess, and an expensive one at that. Plus I'm just skeptical of anything PC-based, so that's not an option.

Anyway, Genesis -- how 'bout those numbers?!!! That Nimbus looks very low to me! As someone else said, that can't be right!

 

Andrew,

I'm afraid that I am no longer able to edit my original posts. As this is the way that sh.tv works, I was expecting that we would need to create Mk. 2, etc. versions of this thread and get the Gorts to lock older versions. Hopefully, over time, the amount of additional information will dwindle until we are left with some kind of definitive data set. I have been trying to decide the right moment to create a new version, maybe that time has arrived? I'm trying to find a balance between the thread getting long (and so folks will miss information) and posting up new versions only for them to become old quickly. Anyway, it does seem like the flow of new data has slowed, so maybe it is time for me to add in all the missing EAC levels that you and others have provided.

Raf: if you are out there, are you ready for another go round?

I will get things ready in the background, interact with Raf and then announce a new version (at which time I will ask the Gorts to lock this thread). I think this is a better strategy than trying to get the Gorts to undertake the editing: I'm sure they have enough to do already!

 

Unless you feel you absolutely have to have the WEA, I would say you are fine with your Japanese JVC disc as it is identical to the US WEA just shifted in level by a fraction of a dB.

Certainly all CDs were originally made in Japan and West Germany. US production did not begin until the mid- to late-80s (members ffracer and KeithH have LOTS of info on this subject).

As you can see from the first page of this thread, there is no data on the Atlantic Gold disc, but some have commented that it is compressed. We do know that the US WEA and US JVC are level-shifted versions of each other (we can not determine which is the original and which is shifted). If you have a Japanese JVC that matches the levels of the US JVC then you have one of the two variants of this particular mastering.

If you are saying that your Japanese JVC copy *IS* the Atlantic Gold, then that is very interesting!

 

Thanks for the response, but that's not what I'm saying. <g> My remasters story is similar to others on the board -- purchased the vinyl and trashed it as an intemperate youth. Purchased a CD as soon as one was released. When the DE came out, I purchased the DE and sold my original Atlantic (D'oh!) believing the DE hype. I picked up the Atlantic Gold later and it is far superior to the DE, but I keep remembering (perhaps incorrectly) a more natural sounding version from the original releases. So, I'm out in the market trying to repurchase what I gave or sold away.

Here's some missing data on the Abacab Gold [82521-2], which sounds much louder than the original and slightly compressed:
Length 47:21, with a 7:04 Abacab (instead of the 6:59 of the JVC) - if I remember correctly, this length matches the length of another earlier mastering, perhaps the V/C.
Peak Levels: 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.9% - 99.9% - 99.9% - 99.8% - 99.8% - 99.8%

I should add that when ABX'ing the Gold and the JVC, the differences between the Atlantic Gold and the JVC are extremely subtle (the drum sound is what I focused on to tell the difference) when replaygain is applied.

 

Yes I am! I'm a little busier these days, but I'm sure I can make time to edit stuff again. Whenever you're ready!

 

Just one question: is there pre-emphasis on the WG Target of And Then There Were Three? I could have sworn I saw someone mention this somewhere on the board. I compared clips of it to my V/C and the Target sounds "brighter", sort of like what I had heard on some non-adjusted PE clips from the Black Triangle DSOTM and Abbey Road.

I don't have the discs by me and I don't think I ripped the tracks to account for PE, so does anyone know? If I had the disc, I would just pop it into EAC and check if it was flagged (that's how you do it right?)

 

The WG target and the WG blue face share the same mastering. They have the same EAC levels. My blue face does not have pre-emphasis.