Genesis - early CD versions thread

Not to qvell on my mastering....

I was many times amazed just how good the master tapes sounded, so much, in fact, that it scared me.

As I have said, when we could, we would pull out a new vinyl of a release to compare and understand whereabouts the CD remaster should sound.

But when the master tape had such vibrance that the vinyl lacked, I became concerned...maybe there was a reason that they didn't "allow" all that delicilus signal and fidelity to come through.

That was incomprehensible to me, so I made the most of it, and let as much of the sonic goodness through onto the CD.

But it still unnerved me...on occasion.

 

OK, this is weird. I just ripped my West German Vertigo blue swirl Three Sides Live (matrix nos.: 810007 2 01 and 810008 2 01). Just for the heck of it, since we already have values for a West German Vertigo disc.

The EAC values for my Disc 1 match Black Elk's un-level-shifted V/C EMI Swindon disc, not Raf's West German Vertigo Disc 1. (Raf, was yours a later Vertigo red swirl?)

However, my values for Disc 2 match the values provided by Jeff for his West German Vertigo disc.

So what do we make of this?

Geoff

 

No "new" masterings, but here's a couple of pressings that aren't listed:

-

Foxtrot V/C, no country of origin on disc (matrix: CASCD 1058 / B-2303 A), same levels as Version 1

V/C (no origin): 99.0 % - 90.5 % - 98.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %

-

Three Sides Live V/C Made in UK, same levels as Version 1

Disc 1 V/C made in UK by PDO
V/C UK PDO : 100.0 % - 97.0 % - 96.3 % - 86.5 % - 87.6 % - 96.5 % - 89.3 %

Disc 2 Version 1 V/C made in UK (no mention of PDO in matrix)
V/C UK : 92.5 % - 85.1 % - 100.0 % - 75.5 % - 80.4 % - 88.1 %

-

BTW: Thank you for this thread!

 

[WC] - Atlantic: 100.0% - 40.0% - 83.6% - 90.6% - 89.5% - 42.1% - 100.0%

I had one of the V/C versions and when comparing to Atlantic, I definitely preferred the Atlantic (Zal's mastering?). IMO, the V/C I had sounded odd... mid-rangey with a kind of AM Radio glare. I recall the waveform looked wonky also (flat tops). I kept my Atlantic.

 

Re: Three Sides Live

AAK. I copied the wrong line when I was editing Black Elk's text. I meant to paste in the EAC data for Black Elk's disc. My Vertigo is actually the same as yours.

My sincerest apologies to everyone for this error. I just hope I haven't done anything else like that in the other entries.

 

Here are two more:

Nursery Cryme V/C West German pressing (stated on insert not disc):

100% - 79.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 96/3% - 100%

...And Then There Were Three V/C Polygram West German pressing (stated on insert not disc):

92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%

 

Here's the Disky FGTR. I'm posting only the first 17 tracks to compare to the DCC:

82.8 % - 80.1 % - 69.7 % - 86.0 % - 69.0 % - 92.5 % - 71.0 % - 91.9 % - 92.7 % - 95.6 % - 89.1 % - 64.8 % - 90.2 % - 79.2 % - 48.6 % - 66.4 % - 66.0 %

 

Zal, I'm glad you commented. I really could not get into the vinyl of that and I thought it was just that I don't listen to vinyl much. But listening to your mastering it seems to be one of those recordings tailor made for CD. I am real happy to have found your version.

 

I was around and buying most of these titles in the US as they were released:

1984:
ATTWT, Abacab, Genesis all released as WG PolyGram made targets with PolyGram/Phonogram (pre-Virgin) cat nos. in the matrix.

Pressed as non-targets (Abacab & Genesis) by Victor Japan (JVC), and ATTWT continued to be pressed in WG and later USA as targets by PDO/PolyGram in 1985-6.

1985:
Duke - pressed by Victor Japan (JVC)
Trick of the Tail - pressed by Victor Japan

late 1986/early 1987:
Selling England by the Lb. - pressed by Sonopress WG
Wind and Wuthering - pressed by Sanyo Japan

the above had Virgin Charisma cat nos. in the matrix
Invisible Touch - pressed by Victor Japan and Nippon Columbia (Denon) Japan This has index markings.

1987:
Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Live, Lamb, Seconds Out - first pressed by WEA Mfg USA- one of WEA Mfg's first titles. There exists a rare Technetronics USA pressing (plant now long gone) of Lamb to supplement production. Foxtrot & Live have index markings.

 

ffracer,

Hope you don't mind me reproducing one of your posts from an earlier thread, but I think it would fit in well here.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2552587&postcount=281

 

I can confirm the EAC levels here for my copy of the Atlantic NC.

I myself prefer the sound of my EMI/Swindon V/C. Better bass, fuller sound, seems to be from a lower-gen tape. To me, the Atlantic NC sounds like what WC says about the V/C! The EQ thins out the bass and puts the midrange up too far. This brings clarity to the inner voices but makes the music sound much less big and majestic. Haven't looked at the waveforms to compare....

 

I don't think this is true. I can try to find this later, but I have an Atlantic and a V/C (Sanyo Japan), and the EAC numbers are not the same. I posted clips and the consensus was that the V/C sound better which matched what I thought I heard too. I remember Dr M prefering the V/C Nimbus, but I don't think a comparison was ever made between the Sanyo Japan (which I think LesPaul66 also had/has) and the Nimbus.

And there was another post where EAC numbers from 4 different masters were shown, and again, none of the V/C versions matched the Atlantic. The Atlantic sounds pretty good, don't get me wrong, and if I didn't know to try a V/C, I could be perfectly happy with it, but ...

 

EAC numbers for the Atlantis vs V/C Sanyo Japan:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3024442&postcount=3

Numbers for the others:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2926781&postcount=783

There was one post where chiagerald posted incorrect EAC numbers for Live.

 

I see the problem.

Here is where Jeff spotted the problem with chiagerald's numbers:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2926252&postcount=778

But those were the numbers used here:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3104954&postcount=6

 

Let me see if I can clear this up. Firstly, all the statements and conclusions in this overview thread are based on reports made by forum members. We have taken the information at face value, but accept that it is possible for errors to creep in. That is also the advantage of a thread such as this where all the data is presented in a compact form: it makes comparisons easier!

With regard to Live, I well remember Jeff's reaction to chiagerald's numbers. However, if you continue to read the posts following the one of Jeff's you quoted, you will see that it seems chiagerald was correct. Jeff does not have a V/C Nimbus version, so his assumption was based on the fact that his Atlantic and V/C DO NOT match. But, the EAC figures for the V/C Nimbus come from Dr. M, and they DO match the levels of the Atlantic and, it would seem, the V/C EMI Uden (I don't think we have found any EMI Uden pressings that differ from Nimbus versions). So, until samples are made available from the V/C Nimbus and Atlantic for someone like Raf to compare, we have to assume, based on the data we have, that the V/C Nimbus and Atlantic are identical. Sadly, I have neither pressing, so cannot help to resolve this issue (indeed, I only know that my version is a clone of a Sonopress issue thanks to Dr. M's posts!).

 

Hmmm, then the V/C Sanyo Japan would seem to be a better mastering than the Atlantic-V/C Nimbus!

 

I have tried to double check the information regarding the Live Sonopress 1 but I just can't manage to find the CD. I guess there is a chance my CD actually is the same as yours (PDO?) but for now I'm not able to verify this.

To me it looks like the Sonyo Japan and the Sonopress 2 are the same only different levels. I have not compared the Sanyo or the Sonopress 2 pressings to my Nimbus version so I can’t comment about the sound differences between this and the Nimbus mastering.

 

I did not catch your samples from the Sanyo Japan the first time around. Maybe you could post them again?

 

Live

Could someone post a lossless sample of the ending of "Get 'Em Out by Friday" from the Sanyo Japan or the Sonopress 2? I want to check out that fadeout. Thanks.

 

I have that UK V/C Sonopress CD. I can confirm that it has pre-emphasis. I'd be happy to provide technical info for it, but someone would have to suggest a Mac OS X tool for it, since I have that and not Windows/EAC.

FYI, the matrix on the CD is:
SONOPRESS CDSCD 4005/B-2309 A

 

Two birds with one stone. The last half or so of Get 'Em Out by Friday from both.

US Atlantic:

http://download.yousendit.com/CE147FBA3943A341

V/C Sanyo Japan:

http://download.yousendit.com/60E374EF50293ADB

 

Live

Thanks very much! Now I can confirm the following:

The V/C Nimbus and the Atlantic are definitely identical, and they both have that "stuttering" fadeout at the end of this track. It sounds good, though.

The V/C Sanyo Japan is a different mastering and does not have the fadeout anomaly on track 2. And yes, it sounds good too.

 

Thanks for providing the information. A question for you (and everyone else): what method are you using to determine that pre-emphasis has been used? We may as well try to make the data as complete as possible, and adding this information could be useful, especially if there are disputes.

 

My method is fairly primitive. I listen to a track in iTunes (which generally recognizes pr-emphasis) and again in the Mac OS Finder, which does not. It's pretty easy to hear the difference. This is probably only reliable to confirm something does have pre-emphasis (as opposed to confirming that it does not).

I actually have an older CD player with a visual indicator for the presence of PE, but I haven't bothered to hook it up for that purpose.

Interestingly (as has been discussed in other threads), there is some voodoo with pre-emphasis. I recently acquired the "black triangle" Abbey Road, which has pre-emphasis which is recognized with (my) CD players, but somehow not recognized by software like EAC and iTunes. (I could hear the difference by playing the CD in my CD player and comparing to iTunes.) In the case of that Abbey Road, I ripped the tracks off the CD, burned a new CD copy with the PE flag set, and re-ripped it in iTunes to get files with PE applied. (I hope that makes sense.)

So anyway, my point is that I am not entirely trusting of all software to tell me that a CD has pre-emphasis, so if I don't hear a difference with software alone, I would not assume that CD does not have PE. I would play it on an actual CD player to confirm.

 

Great answer, and it is because of issues with EAC, for example, with SOME pre-emphasized CDs that I asked about the method.