Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2)

Another vote here for the Sanyo Japan mastering of 'Wind and Wuthering'... the bass on 'All in a Mouse's Night' is awesome, I hadn't really been able to pick out Mike's amazing playing on this track before.

 

I * really* have to track one of these down some day. I'm pretty happy with all the others I have.

 

Following up on Seconds Out. It appears the black triangle pressing for this one is from the same transfer as the V/C, but the V/C (at least my Nimbus) does have one clip on "Squonk." I didn't test the rest of the tracks for clipping.

This is a sample from the 1991 Japanese release # VJD-36030 (EAC peaks match the BT just like the others I've tested from 1988 and 1991 Japanese pressings):

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=S1VCZGloZ1BOMUFLSkE9PQ


And here is a sample from the V/C (Nimbus) which was cut a bit hotter but sounds about the same to me:

https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=S1VCZGloZ1A1R05MWEE9PQ

 

It took me a while but actually proved pretty easy and cheap in the end - I just emailed a few eBay sellers who had original V/C CDs listed, until I found one with a Sanyo matrix.

I must confess I haven't given the Nimbus and Sanyos proper A/B comparison yet, so I was only going on memory really. Don't spend loads of money on my say so!

I wonder if any of the other titles with Sanyo mastering are different/better?

 

Well, the Sanyo Japan gets for Genesis Live seems to be highly thought of. (I lucked into one of those.)

Hey LF: any chance you could post a sample of the W&W Sanyo Japan? I'm curious how different it is vs the "std" V/C.

 

I'm not LF, but name a song and I'll post a sample.

Having listened again recently, my preference remains the V/C as I wrote here:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3996371&postcount=298

a view shared by Dr. M., as indicated here:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3997402&postcount=310

I'm not convinced that the Sanyo has any more bass than the V/C, it is simply lacking the HF extension that the V/C has, sounding like a blanket has been thrown over the speakers as a result.

[Side question: does anyone know of a FLAC encoder for a 64-bit W7 PC?]

 

Black Elk: thanks for those posts! I must have somehow missed those. (When I was researching Genesis CDs, I was still in my infancy of *how* to note down comments for each CD. For Genesis, I just have a big text file with stuff cut and pasted everywhere. Now, I use Excel spreadsheets with individual sheets for each release. )

Could you post the 1st 2:30 of Eleventh Earl of Mar?

And from my big text file , one other where I wasn't 100% sure was ... And Then There Were Three ... ??

 

That sounds way too scientific. Why not do what the rest of us do: just ask Jeff Carney!

Grab it while you can: https://download.yousendit.com/VGllL0dNNDI1R1BIRGc9PQ

That's not a title that I play too often, but I recall preferring the V/C. I have the V/C and Atlantic if you need samples.

 

Jeff's comments are all over my text file. Thanks Jeff !!

 

Shoot, I feel like I'm posting the following in the wrong thread ( http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883&highlight=genesis ), but I finally had a chance to compare the V/C, Sanyo Japan, and DE for Wind & Wuthering.

I posted in a different thread that for Abacab, I felt the Gold CD was a hair too bright, the US CD was too dark, and the V/C was just right.

I like both the Sanyo Japan and the V/C for W&W, but my life won't now be incomplete if I never own the Sanyo Japan myself. Maybe I had built it up in my head with all the complaints about the lack of bass on the V/C (which personally, I never really felt was the case), so ... The DE sucks eggs. After comparing back to back which I had never done before, I was only keeping the DE because a few people liked the lower frequencies on that one vs the V/C. Well, yeah, it does have more bass, but it's overblown. Way too much. And it has too much treble too, although the increased bass bothers me much more than the boosted treble. Can you say: "yet another smiley faced mastering" ?

As far as the Sanyo Japan it's not near as different from the V/C as the DE is. (Could have probably guessed that ...) Anyway, I find the Sanyo Japan a smidge too dark. It's a good mastering, and if I had that one and wondered whether to get the V/C, I wouldn't bother. But by the same token, since I have a V/C, I won't be so hyper any longer to try and find a Sanyo Japan.

So the V/C seems "just right" to me, at least in relation to the Sanyo and the DE.

One thing, the consensus is that the Sanyo Japan has more bass than the V/C. That's true, in a way. It has a 1.5 dB rise centered about 30 Hz. The V/C actually has more low frequency information below that. The Sanyo has a roll off way down low that the V/C doesn't have. I'm not sure how relevant that is, but just thought I'd mention it. (No, CDs do not have some imaginary cut off below 20 Hz. ) I do think the Sanyo Japan might sound like it has even more bass, *because* it's a shade darker than the V/C, if that makes sense. (If you boost the bass on a recording, you can make it seem more palatable by boosting the highs too, sort of to "balance" them. So the Sanyo Japan has a slight boost for the lows, but the top end is a little mellower than the V/C, so it might *seem* like it might have more bass than it does.)

Anyway, both are great masterings. The DE ... is not.

 

Yeah, the bigger issue for me is the top end. I like the Sanyo but even it is a bit too bright compared to the German Charisma vinyl which I love dearly, and has been said to sound very similar to the highly praised Japanese vinyl pressing.

I can't help but suspect that people who find the Sanyo too 'dark' or 'veiled' are possibly CD listeners, exclusively. And in my experience, until one cleans out their ears with some vinyl listening, it's easy to perceive darker tonality as somehow missing high frequency energy. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it is missing that top end boost, but listening to vinyl quite a bit lately has adjusted my hearing, so if I liked "dull" before, I probably really like "dull" now.

And compared to vinyl, I think the Sanyo and the Nimbus both just kind of suck. They get a bit tinny in the cymbals and the vinyl isn't like that. Of the two, I prefer the Sanyo, but the German Charisma vinyl I have is astonishing, IMO. It's got weight and is meaty instead of feeling like you're eating a salad, even if might rank the Sanyo as a chicken caesar.

 

Coincidentally, I just scored a Sanyo Japan of W&W today. This is one sweet sounding disc IMO. Blows away the DE, no question. Not to mention my rather tame sounding UK vinyl first pressing. To my ears, this disc is velvety smooth with just the right amount of lows and highs, and the very subtle but present hiss of an unfutzed-with master. I'd recommend this disc to anybody.

 

Hi Gary and all,

I've been posting a few comments here and there lately, after silently lurking for a couple years. Good to be here and I'm really enjoying the informative discussions.

After sending out inquiries to about six different 3rd party Amazon sellers, I was finally able to score the W & W Atco Sanyo Japan CD. Ordered it today for just $3.00 plus S/H in VG shape. (Did I do okay? )The seller definitely confirmed it states Sanyo Japan on the outer edge & inner ring, so I'm confident this version will be what is delivered next week. Will try to remember to post back then with my impressions as compared to the versions I have, which are the DE on CD & the original US Atco LP (cover signed by Steve H in 1977 at Tower Sunset) and a later UK Charisma LP. My buddy still has his turntable, so I'll need to pay him a visit and recollect.

Wish me luck!

Best to all,
Greg

 

Sanyo Japan ATCO W & W

Hi all,

I've been slow in following up. I finally received the Sanyo Japan ATCO CD of Wind & Wuthering (ATCO SD 38 100-2) last week. I've attached some photos for anyone who need any help identifying this particular version.

I have had a chance to finally listen through a couple times. I have to agree with Jeff Carney that this album is better off on vinyl and with Gary (Runt), that it's very smooth! Even though I haven't heard every available digital version, the nice balance presented on the Sanyo Japan mastering is perfectly acceptable and has minimal harshness at the top end. I'd still like to get my hands on the UK V/C Nimbus pressing & do a comparison, but I'm pretty satisfied with this one. The lows and high are not emphasized and the mids are pretty spot on. Pretty cohesive overall and quite dynamic to boot.

Saying there's not much to the "booklet" is a major understatement. Just a single sheet foldout with no lyrics or credits. If I remember correctly, most of the DE's had decent booklets, so (fill in blank here)...

NOTE: Don't rely on the printed track tally on the back to identify the Sanyo Japan version. As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong here), the US WEA pressing's artwork also has the "8 track" list printed on the back tray card as well).

The Sanyo Japan ATCO version was pretty easy to find and cheap as well! Great find, great memories, pretty close representation of the original, for digital!

Greg

By the way, inner hub info in the disc label photo below is a little hard to read; it is: [MANUFACTURED BY SANYO JAPAN CDSCD4005 51216J] (no brackets)

 

All I can add is an echo of what someone else said in this thread or its predecessor and that is that the U.S. (made in JPN.) ATCO Trick of the Tail CD beats the orig. UK blueface Virgin orig. And not by a little either. The diff. is dramatic.

I have not done the A-B on WAW, though. Guess I need to.

 

Most of the V/C's of W&W have a multi-page booklet. I bought a Sanyo Japan V/C instead of the Atco and got the nicer booklet.

 

Wind & Wuthering Sanyo Japan Disc

Hey, Greg, glad you liked this disc. I also thought it sounded great, but everybody's ears can hear things differently. Definitely one of the best sounding digital versions out there IMO. My copy also has the lame, cheesy insert. But the sound more than makes up for that oversight!

 

Hi Yesstiles,

Good to know - thank you! IIRC, I believe the DE also had a great booklet, albeit that was probably the best part of that set!

Greg

Hi Gary,

So true. You know how you look through your collection and get an immediate impression of a CD's sound just from looking at it? Well, my impression of the Sanyo Japan will be that the music is very inviting and listenable next time I see it! (If this makes any sense at all!) Thanks for replying! Insert-wise, this one was definitely par for the course for that era!

Greg

 

Yep, know exactly what you mean. I get that feeling every time I look at my original Atlantic Duke...another great-sounding Genesis disc if you don't have it.

 

Duke

I should probably break down and pick up a cheap 'Barry" US CD release of Duke. I've never owned it on CD. I bought the original cassette in '81 during a short visit to Japan and then a used vinyl copy in the 90's.

 

don't forget these other exceptional sounding Genesis CDs

Foxtrot (V/C)
And Then There were three (V/C)
Invisible Touch (V/C)

A Trick of the Tail (Atlantic)...........if you want to go to heaven, listen to the (V/C) of this

 

Hi Slipperman87,

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll try & hunt these down too eventually. I have a circa 1991 pre-DE Japanese CD of Foxtrot that is excellent, most likely a clone of the earlier V/C. I don't really feel the need to pick up another version at this time. Also looking forward to getting my ears on a copy of the UK V/C Trick when I can find it. Does it need to be the Nimbus version? I believe there numerous variations all supposedly 'made in the UK.'

Greg

 

Regarding ATotT: Are you referring to the German blueface or UK? Isn't this the same mastering as the US Atco? (There is no US Atlantic of this, but I think you meant Atco.)

 

After the comparison I did of this one a while back, I couldn't not get this one. For a lot of these, I do have 2 of them as the "best" CDs available. Sometimes there is no "best", just that they are different.

Anyway, I finally found one, but it's a little bit different than what we thought was out there. The peak levels all match. But at the bottom of the label it says, "Made in USA by Sanyo". And the matrix code says, "Manufactured by Sanyo" and the catalog number and some other stuff. Bar code on the back, and Printed in USA is on the insert. So the Japanese Sanyo mastering ended up in the US at some point.

The irony? I got it from eBay Australia.

I'd be curious if a Sanyo (Japan or US ) ever shows up for ATTWT.

 

A little update on Seconds Out:

The Black Triangle does have a unique mastering. The Black Triangle is also the same mastering as the 1988 Big Artist Series and the 1991 VJCP-36030 release.

This mastering is not as good as the V/C, IMO. It has some added "air" and the midrange is scooped out just slightly. The V/C (Nimbus) does have a couple of clipped samples here and there, and the JPN mastering does not, but the V/C is a better mastering, IMO. I'd rate it as about the best version of this album I have ever heard.

Bjorn put together a graph showing the EQ on the original Japan mastering compared to the original V/C: