Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2)

Black Elk · Nov 11, 2008

Raf said: ↑

All I can confirm right now is that the Sonopress does not sync with the Atlantic. Is there something else I should be comparing it to?
Click to expand...

The version that we do NOT know about is this one:

Version 2?
[hat] - V/C Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% (only 4 tracks provided)
[HiFi] - V/C, German Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%
[Geoff] – Charisma 814 270-2, West German (Yellow Rays) : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%
NOTE: this version has not yet been checked against the others to see whether it is a unique mastering or a level-shifted clone.

So, we know that Versions 1 and 3 are distinct from each other, we don't yet know if Version 2 is related to 1 or 3. I assume you do not have Ver. 2 so someone would need to post a clip for you.

bdiament · Nov 11, 2008

Hi Black Elk,

Black Elk said: ↑

But do you still prefer the Atlantic? I think this V/C version is much better, but I seem to be in the minority about that. The Atlantic has had all the 'air' filtered out of it.
Click to expand...

Sounds like they may have had the benefit of original tapes. ?

Atlantic just gave me an EQ'd limited copy to work from (as they did more often than not).
I can assure you no filtering was applied by me.

Shortly after I left Atlantic and was working directly with Genesis on re-mastering their catalog (none of which to my knowledge, have ever seen the light of day), I got to hear what the originals sounded like on most of their albums. I know first hand that Hugh Padgham's mixes, like the ones he did for Phil Collins, sounded much better than what was left on the EQ'd limited tapes. ("Abacab" was quite wonderful.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

SergioRZ · Dec 3, 2008

Black Elk said: ↑

Wind & Wuthering

There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

The consensus seems to be that all original CD editions are lacking in bass. Some members prefer the DE for this reason. Others feel that the use of noise reduction on the DE is unforgivable and the older CDs (with or without a manual bass boost) are better; of these people, most seem to prefer the Version 1 mastering (however, the Black Triangle has only just come to light, and it is unlikely many people have yet heard it).

Version 1
[Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%
[BE] - V/C EMI Swindon, UK : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%

Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
[PaulT] - V/C, West German : 100.0% - 100.0% - 83.2% - 97.5% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 39.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%
[HiFi] - V/C Sonopress, West German (Matrix: SONOPRESS CDSCD4005/B-2309 A): 100.0% - 100.0% - 83.2% - 97.5% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 39.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%
NOTE: The Sonopress version has its absolute phase inverted relative to Version 1, and also contains pre-emphasis.

Alternative Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
[Jeff] – Atco (WEA), US : 87.1% - 81.3% - 66.7% - 68.6% - 60.6% - 64.1% - 80.0% - 87.0%
NOTE1: Jeff reported, “This CD sounds like it was mastered from a source with PE off when it should have been on. It is just horrible … I would guess that somebody who mastered this might have used a Sonopress and played it back on something that did not decode the PE. Whatever happened, this thing is a Frisbee.”
NOTE2: Raf analyzed a sample and reported: “Well, I'm thoroughly confused. This thing syncs with the Nimbus and the WG Sonopress, but it doesn't sound like either of them, either as-is or de-emphasized. I'd love to speculate on a likely hypothesis given the various permutations (i.e. which masterings sound most like what, and which ones probably need de-emphasis), but none of them seem to match closely enough.”

Version 2
[BE] - Atco Sanyo, Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
[Dr. M] - V/C Sanyo, Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
NOTE: This version is easily recognized in that it contains only 8 tracks. Unquiet Slumbers... and ...In That Quiet Earth are combined into Track 7.

Version 3?
[Dave] - 32VD-1033, Japan (Black Triangle) : 94.4 % - 87.8 % - 79.4 % - 82.7 % - 67.7 % - 72.9 % - 41.0 % - 94.8 % - 97.0 %
NOTE: this version has not yet been checked against the above to see whether it is a unique mastering or a level-shifted clone.

HiFi reported having a UK V/C Sonopress that contains pre-emphasis. This might help explain why some listeners do not like the early CD editions (do their players have de-emphasis properly implemented? Stereophile's tests -- published at http://www.stereophile.com -- of CD players shows that this is not always the case!).

PlusMinus confirmed that his UK Sonopress copy (matrix = CDSCD 4005/B-2309 A) has pre-emphasis!
Click to expand...

So, is the Black Triangle the best version?

What are the main differences between the version 1 (UK VC) and version 2 (Germany VC) regarding sound presentation?

PaulT · Dec 3, 2008

SergioRZ said: ↑

So, is the Black Triangle the best version?

What are the main differences between the version 1 (UK VC) and version 2 (Germany VC) regarding sound presentation?

Click to expand...

This thread is listing the different Versions found (and EAC logs) for the discs rather than discussing 'The Best'.

For that you need to wade through the first 3 Threads listed in this post:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3104946&postcount=1

good luck

SergioRZ · Dec 16, 2008

Black Elk said: ↑

Selling England By The Pound

There appear to be THREE (?) original masterings of this title.

The Japanese discs are based on the Nimbus; the Atlantic is based on the DADC Austria. When clips were posted, the preference was narrowly for the DADC.

Version 1
[Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
[And] - V/C Virgin Megastore : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

Level-shifted copy of Version 1
[PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1029, Japan (Black Triangle) : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
[hat] - V/C VJD-28025, Japan : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
[Dave] - V/C VJCP-23117, Japan : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

Level-shifted copy of Version 1 with misplaced Track Start
[Dave] - V/C 32VD-1029, Japan (Black Triangle) : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 64.7% - 74.9%
NOTE: For some unknown reason, the Track Start for Aisle Of Plenty on Dave’s Black Triangle copy appears 5 minutes before it should (appearing mid-way through Cinema Show).
NOTE2: The absolute phase of this version is unknown at this time.

Version 2
[BE] - V/C DADC, Austria : 99.5% - 96.5% - 97.7% - 62.4% - 78.2% - 53.9% - 75.4% - 61.1%

Level-shifted copy of Version 2
[Dave W S] - Atlantic : 95.09% - 92.23% - 95.50% - 60.99% - 76.47% - 52.75% - 73.69% - 59.76%
[HiFi] - Atlantic : 95.0% - 92.2% - 95.5% - 60.9% - 76.4% - 52.7% - 73.6% - 59.7%
NOTE: The differing figures for the two Atlantic discs are probably due to computer rounding. For now, these are assumed to be the same mastering.

NOTE2: Dave W S later reported, "I think it's safe to say these two are the same, as I did not use EAC to get those numbers."

Version 3?
[nemo] - V/C Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
[HiFi] - Atlantic Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
NOTE: The Sonopress discs match some of the levels of the DADC, but not the entire disc. Is this a further mastering?
Click to expand...

Which one is this one (details below)?

Cat.no. on disc is CASCD 1074 0777 7 86363 2 8
The full matrix is 786363 2 @ 1 -1-2 NL
CD and booklet say manufactured in Holland

Seems to be Holland made version, should it have the same mastering as the original Nimbus CD?

SergioRZ · Dec 17, 2008

SergioRZ said: ↑

Which one is this one (details below)?

Cat.no. on disc is CASCD 1074 0777 7 86363 2 8
The full matrix is 786363 2 @ 1 -1-2 NL
CD and booklet say manufactured in Holland

Seems to be Holland made version, should it have the same mastering as the original Nimbus CD?
Click to expand...

Can anyone help me determine what mastering is used on this CD version of Selling England By The Pound?

Black Elk · Dec 17, 2008

No data on an Uden, NL pressing of Selling England has been presented. Based on all the other data gathered so far, an Uden pressing will likely match a Nimbus version.

SergioRZ · Dec 17, 2008

Ok, thanks for the help. If I'm able to buy this one I mentioned I will confirm the EAC values and post them here

freqazoidiac · Feb 17, 2009

I have a JONJO 740027C - JMCS 4- release on cassette, of GENESIS 'from genesis to revelation" from 1990, columbia music club of Canada. I had my Canadian 1st press on London converted to digital for a long while, so I'm familiar with the pitch and phase of the channels. The tape has opposite channels. The speed is off on the cassette also.
Is this an error on Jonjo's part, or was it a correction of original ideal? I read that a few members wanted the Music to sound DRY originally, but they pushed towards the progressive spacey phasey sound of the day for appeal.
One very annoying aspect of JONJO cassette, is with many transient peaks, especially percussive string hits, you get MASSIVE pumping! wow..almost the worst I have heard on a cassette released retail, unless damaged by magnetic interference. I know it's the tape, as i have found 2 identical the last year. I read Steve released this on DCC the same year as this cassette, anyone know the source material?

LivingForever · Mar 18, 2009

I have just acquired an old V/C Wind and Wuthering which is a Holland pressing:

CDSCD 4005
077778644125

1-1-1-NL on matrix

I used to own the Nimbus W&W, and it had orange text on the front and back of the case - this one is green, which is interesting. I think it's a later pressing, I guess.

Will post EAC logs if any use to anyone.

Jeff Carney · Mar 18, 2009

LivingForever said: ↑

I have just acquired an old V/C Wind and Wuthering which is a Holland pressing:

CDSCD 4005
077778644125

1-1-1-NL on matrix

I used to own the Nimbus W&W, and it had orange text on the front and back of the case - this one is green, which is interesting. I think it's a later pressing, I guess.

Will post EAC logs if any use to anyone.
Click to expand...

I just got this one and the EAC logs match the Nimbus pressing.

LivingForever · Mar 27, 2009

Just got a Sonopress "Made in West Germany" Nursery Cryme too.

Has anyone done any A/B ing on this one with a Nimbus?

LivingForever · Apr 15, 2009

Just got hold of a V/C 'Made in France by PDM' Duke.

Will post EAC values since none have been listed so far!

darkmatter · Apr 15, 2009

LivingForever said: ↑

I have just acquired an old V/C Wind and Wuthering which is a Holland pressing:

CDSCD 4005
077778644125

1-1-1-NL on matrix

I used to own the Nimbus W&W, and it had orange text on the front and back of the case - this one is green, which is interesting. I think it's a later pressing, I guess.

Will post EAC logs if any use to anyone.
Click to expand...

Yes please

LivingForever · Apr 15, 2009

darkmatter said: ↑

Yes please
Click to expand...

Well, ok, I did an EAC rip and it matched the Nimbus and EMI Swindon readings - maybe this could be added to this list at the start of the thread?

Black Elk · Apr 15, 2009

LivingForever said: ↑

Well, ok, I did an EAC rip and it matched the Nimbus and EMI Swindon readings - maybe this could be added to this list at the start of the thread?
Click to expand...

The Forum software does not allow users to edit old posts, so your additions will be included in the third version of this thread, which, I guess, I had better start putting together. So, anyone with more data to add please post it here.

LivingForever · Apr 16, 2009

Ahhhh, makes sense! Thanks BE.

Okay, I now have data for my French Duke CD...

Genesis - Duke
Virgin / Charisma CBRCD101
Made in France by MPO
Matrix: MPO 5

CD disc has same font and text as standard V/C Duke but in blue lettering rather than the usual black.

Peak Values: 100% / 100% / 73.6% / 100% / 100% / 100% / 100% / 100% / 100% / 99.3% / 100% / 100%

I haven't actually played it yet so can't comment on channels, etc.

James

LivingForever · Apr 16, 2009

Interesting - this doesn't seem to match anything else at all. (Unless I'm being dense...?!)

Plan9 · May 2, 2009

Black Elk said: ↑

Abacab

There appear to be FOUR original masterings of this title.

Version 2
[Jeff] - Target : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
[Geoff] – Vertigo 800 044 2 01, West German (Blue Swirl) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
[Dave] – Vertigo 32PD-35, West German for Japan (Red/Orange Swirl) : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
Click to expand...

My Abacab Vertigo 800 044-2 Red Swirl "Made In France by PDO" matches the Target mastering.

Starwanderer · May 7, 2009

I've found a used copy of a Nursery Crime CD in a record store

Virgin/Charisma CASCD 1052
No barcode
No country of origin
Matrix: CASCD 1052 / B-2305 A

I'm tempted to buy it but I already have the nimbus pressing. Does anyone know if it matches the nimbus pressing? My guess is both share the same mastering. However, as I seemed to read somewhere in this thread, another CD with similar matrix info had pre-emphasis (My CD player cannot decode pre-emphasis)

Thanks!

Plan9 · May 7, 2009

pitro said: ↑

I've found a used copy of a Nursery Crime CD in a record store

Virgin/Charisma CASCD 1052
No barcode
No country of origin
Matrix: CASCD 1052 / B-2305 A

I'm tempted to buy it but I already have the nimbus pressing. Does anyone know if it matches the nimbus pressing? My guess is both share the same mastering. However, as I seemed to read somewhere in this thread, another CD with similar matrix info had pre-emphasis (My CD player cannot decode pre-emphasis)

Thanks!
Click to expand...

It should be the same as the Nimbus as it is a V/C. To my knowledge, there only was one mastering of this title by V/C. And it has not pre-emphasis.

Starwanderer · May 7, 2009

Plan9 said: ↑

It should be the same as the Nimbus as it is a V/C. To my knowledge, there only was one mastering of this title by V/C. And it has not pre-emphasis.
Click to expand...

Merci, Thomas

I'll probably buy it anyway. I can offer it to a forum member really cheap (I think it costs about 5€)

Plan9 · May 7, 2009

pitro said: ↑

Merci, Thomas

I'll probably buy it anyway. I can offer it to a forum member really cheap (I think it costs about 5€)
Click to expand...

De nada, Manuel.

Yes you should do that, you'll certainly make someone happy.

lrpm · May 8, 2009

My copy of FGTR has a nice booklet of 12 pages (in the last one there is an image of the original Decca release, with the dark cover, the paper sleeve (? is this correct?, my English is not very good) that says 'MONO MONO MONO..' along all the border, and the vinyl with the red stamp (sorry, I don't know the correct word) on it.
It has the tittle: 'From Genesis to Revelation ...the first album'
The logo says 'Music Club', but under that it says Music Collection International 36-38 Caxton Way, Watford, Herfordshire WD1 8UF (P) 1993 Music Collection Int (C) 1993 Music Collection Int, Issued under licence from Jonjo Music Co. Ltd.

On the CD (printed) the ref is MCCD 133, and it is stated 'Manufactured in the EEC'
On the back of the CD it can be read: 10256691 01, and opposite to it: MAYKING RECORDS MCCD133

EAC testing gives:
Track 1
Filename 01 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - Where The Sour Turns To Sweet.wav

Peak level 70.7 %
Track quality 99.8 %
Test CRC CDB294F6
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename 02 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - In The Beginning.wav

Peak level 94.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 43646736
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename 03 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - Fireside Song.wav

Peak level 74.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 8277863E
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename 04 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - The Serpent.wav

Peak level 92.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4C69C253
Copy OK

Track 5
Filename 05 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - Am I Very Wrong .wav

Peak level 77.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC FBE4D2BA
Copy OK

Track 6
Filename 06 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - In The Wilderness.wav

Peak level 93.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 591BE242
Copy OK

Track 7
Filename 07 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - The Conqueror.wav

Peak level 90.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC E9355127
Copy OK

Track 8
Filename 08 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - In Hiding.wav

Peak level 85.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0CD1272B
Copy OK

Track 9
Filename 09 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - One Day.wav

Peak level 85.7 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 5C46EEF0
Copy OK

Track 10
Filename 10 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - Window.wav

Peak level 68.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC D3F26228
Copy OK

Track 11
Filename 11 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - In Limbo.wav

Peak level 94.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 56A7F6B2
Copy OK

Track 12
Filename 12 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - Silent Sun.wav

Peak level 88.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC B76FCF73
Copy OK

Track 13
Filename 13 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - A Place To Call My Own.wav

Peak level 53.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C3002721
Copy OK

Track 14
Filename 14 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - A Winter's Tale.wav

Peak level 74.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC AED3EB38
Copy OK

Track 15
Filename 15 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - One Eyed Hound.wav

Peak level 92.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0A2B6B4E
Copy OK

Track 16
Filename 16 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - That's Me.wav

Peak level 94.1 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 3F46E6EF
Copy OK

Track 17
Filename 17 Genesis - From Genesis To Revelation ... ... the first album (Music Club version) - The Silent Sun (mono single version).wav

Peak level 91.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4D47BA63
Copy OK

I could post a sample tomorrow if there is any interest on it

Jeff Carney · Jun 14, 2009

Just got a copy of Nursery Cryme that might add to the info on this one:

Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
[PaulT] - V/C, UK: 100.0% - 53.6% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.5% - 50.8% - 100.0%
NOTE: The absolute phase is inverted on this relative to Version 1.

My copy says Manufactured by Sonopress in Western Germany around the inner ring.

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Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2)

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