"Future Of Classic Records" thread (part two)

I love supporting this company and as much as I'd love to pick up a couple of these new Peter Gabriel issues, they are just SOOOO expensive! I think it would have helped the cost if they would have used both sides of the record....

 

Great rewrite.

I've found some online retailers that have not jacked prices so am going to focus on picking up a few CR titles that I haven't yet. I suspect that Classic has had trouble moving stock on LPs due to the recession and had to get rid of their inventory of low selling and expensive to wharehouse LPs to fund new licence agreements. Perhaps they even ended agreements themselves on low selling LPs to help focus funds on new titles that they expect will sell well. I look at this as a cash flow issue that may be resloved by selling old expensive stock to produce new product that will move through their new distributor quickly. Hobson mentions they have 50 new titles in the can. I hope this is true as I love all the Classic titles I own. I also hope they keep up their dedication to releasing titles with authentic cover art. I do expect though that future releases will remain at a decent price through their new distributor.

 

I think you assume too much about my position. I don't feel "entitled" to buy items at certain prices, and every company has an absolute right to charge whatever amount they feel is appropriate. But "price gouging" is not a vague term at all, it is defined as a supplier's benefiting to excess from a short-term change in the demand curve. There obviously wasn't as strong a demand for this excess inventory until a statement was made that it was the "last chance" to get this stuff that's been hanging out in their warehouse for years. That's a short term change in the demand curve, or could also be called a manufactured panic. It's unethical, and Hobson admitted in his own statement that it was inspired by a Georgetown record store who did the very same thing and Classic sought out AS with the reason that AS has expertise in getting the highest premium using the same Georgetown record store practices - which seemed a foolish thing to admit and also seems like throwing a business partner under the bus in front of their customers.

I shop at AS, and I personally don't think they have unfair prices on the bulk of their merchandise. However, after Hobson's comment, I admit I'll be looking more carefully at what I purchase from AS and checking other merchants to ensure I'm paying a fair price.

Look, I am not on a mission to throw disparage on Classic, I hope they succeed and are able to bring more products on the market for consumers to enjoy. I wish them the best, honestly I do. I just see these statements and last chance panic sale as unethical. If you look at the alternative press statement written up by drbryant, I feel that was perfectly composed and addresses the concerns that were aroused by rumours. Instead, we got the two statements that we got and they were not worded or communicated well. But what was communicated is that Classic partnered with Acoustic Sounds as their exclusive distributor to create a coercive monopoly to raise prices above market rate that would otherwise prevail in a competitive environment - and yes, that's another way to define "price gouging".

I've chosen not to participate in this last chance panic sale, but I don't think anybody who's scooping up Classic titles right now is foolish for doing so - if it's product they want and they are comfortable paying the amount charged, why would I have a problem with that? And don't assume I'm upset because I lost out on something I passed on previously and is now priced higher, because that's not the case and I never said it was.

 

I think that all parties involved here are to blame, or praised, depending on your point of view. Just look at each site that those boxes of LP's were shipped to. All these online retailers are charging the same inflated prices. Seems clear to me that an agreed price gouging formula was agreed upon and then carried out. It was like clockwork that these price increases were implemented by all these retailers. :thumbsdn:

 

Ahh, all this talk about Classic going belly-up...

Frankly, it didn't prompt me to buy something I didn't really want, just because it might be worth more later. Although it did kick me in the shorts to buy 2 things I've have wanted, so that's a good thing, I guess.

I agree with one thing Mr Hobson said -- capitalism is at play here. But is that so bad? If it helps to maintain or increase the value of these pressings, I'm good with that. This is the sort of stuff that occurs to stimulate the collectors markets for other endeavors.

Anyhow -- glad they are not closing up shop, it appears. But I will say, as other labels start recognizing the demand for pressings of equal quality at competitive prices, they just may find it hard to compete..

 

I don't get the point of people telling us that no one is forcing folks to buy classic records titles that jumped in price from certain vendors. Is that the position of anyone? Did anyone say they felt forced to buy them? In a free market economy, are people allowed to voice their discontent? Or is it a one way street of buy it or don't buy it, but shut up about the pricing a vendor chooses to mark up their product to, no matter how ridiculous you think it is? This type of thinking really grinds my gears.

I need to reiterate, there are some smaller outfits who have NOT (at least not yet) increased their prices on Classic Records titles. Vote with your wallet and support these outfits.

When will "audiophiles" stop taking it in the rear and demand more from their "dealers"? Jeez. These type of things keep happening because many are too complicit, or they rationalize it as some sort of capitalistic, free market society malarkey. You all sound like you just read some journals about Milton Friedman.

 

I certainly would agree that the market for audiophile vinyl is not as efficient for exactly the reasons you mention - limited buyers and sellers. On top of that, there are intellectual property issues (not just anyone can go out and press a copy of an album and start selling it) that limit competition. But if there is enough inefficiency in the market and some profit to be made, then we should see more audiophile labels and high quality vinyl manufacturers enter this market. That is what a free market is. This would be great for us consumers, but my suspicion is that it won't happen.

We also have to keep in mind that vinyl buyers are a small slice of the whole music market, and audiophile vinyl buyers are an even smaller slice of that. There are tons of ways for me to buy a particular album (CD, download, etc.) but I choose to buy a highly differentiated product and that is why I pay a premium for it.

I guess my point is you can't have it both ways. Either you have a free market where manufacturers that differentiate their product can charge a premium and opportunistic sellers can adjust prices to reflect supply and demand, or you have a law that says no one can charge more than $5 for an album in any form (to take it to the extreme). Either we pay for the premium niche product that we want and are subject to the price swings or we all start debating about which download service has the best quality Mp3's.

At any rate, I'm not going to spend much time or money scrambling for Classic pressings. I'd rather save my money for Music Matters' product!

 

Good post. I have voiced my discontent and I have been buying Classic albums that I have wanted at the normal prices. I don't have anything on my list that I was gunning for so I wasn't catalyzed by this to take action. I was however soured in a big way. Why would I WANT to support a company that admittedly wants to screw me rather than just provide a product that ideally is a good one (and that is very much debatable at any price, let alone these audiophile prices).

Those that claim this is nothing but capitalism need to go back to school. Capitalism is loosely a supply and demand chain but it is also tied to equal opportunity in a market place. AS is now the distributor. They can claim something is OOP and eventually sold out, make it appear so in the market place to all the competitors and then mysteriously start dripping new units through their own site at these admittedly gouging prices all the while under the guise of fair supply and demand. No other company has the opportunity to sell Classic records in the way AS does and so capitalism does not apply. Monopoly invariably does apply. Philosophy of economics needs to be taught to more than a few folks that don't seem to get it. Ethics plays a large part in business, hence why we have wonderful legal systems who protect consumers from slimy manufacturers and retail outlets. Sure consumers have a choice NOT to buy, but that mere fact does not excuse malice in the system. Some malice is criminal, some malice is merely unethical, regardless neither have any place in capitalism.

This is not capitalism by any definition. It is heinous behaviour and as others have suggested I will "vote with my dollar" and refrain from buying any Classic titles. Not a big deal for me as I've mentioned, I wasn't hunting for anything they had that I don't already own.

 

You are right, I quoted your post because it was about price gouging and then went on to make a general statement about people feeling "entitled" to a certain price. Sorry to have painted you with the same brush.

As for the vagueness of "price gouging" I do think it is very hard to define. There are states that have laws against it, but they are very seldom enforced precisely because it is so hard to prove/define. How do you fully know a seller's motivation for adjusting prices, and at what point does it become gouging? What exactly is a short-term change in the demand curve? Is it one day, one month or one year? What exactly is excess benefit? How much is the 'normal' benefit that a merchant or manufacturer who takes a risk to make a profit entitled to? Who decides this? I am playing devils advocate here, but you can see how hard it is to answer these questions with any degree of precision.

 

Yeah, my feeling is that this is still kind of a false dilemma, but that would really take us off-topic. Nonetheless, I agree with you in terms of what you say being a reasonable argument.

I don't even have a turntable, so I really don't know what I'm doing here! I guess you can take the professor out of the classroom, but....

Geoff

 

Agreed - and I feel the need to point out that what's going on with Classic and Acoustic Sounds is NOT illegal, only unethical. I really do not wish ill upon any company putting out audiophile products, we need MORE audiophile merchandise and the audiophile market would be best served and perhaps expanded if entry was made easier for the common folk. Price gouging, in the legal arena, is about merchandise and services that are necessary in civil emergencies. As much as I may feel I cannot live without a Miles Davis LP, the fact is that I will continue living and breathing without it.

And absolutely no apology was necessary, it's all good for the sake of a vigorous debate and I absolutely appreciate your point of view!

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't vote with our wallets, take our business elsewhere or even complain directly to the stores that these prices are more than we want to pay for a title if that is the case. That's also part of a free market, the freedom of the consumer.

You make it sound like this is a bad thing...

 

Why should I get all worked up? Almost all of their titles cost more than I wanted to pay when they were $33. (I think I've bought exactly one Classic title since their prices went over $30 for a 33.3 single disc record.) Now that they're $50, $80, $100, etc. they are still more than I want to pay, just significantly more so. But complaining about high prices won't bring them down anymore than complaining about the rain will bring sunshine.

 

I'm not telling you to get worked up about anything. What you do is your prerogative. However, indifference about anything generally leads to the will of someone else being imposed. Oftentimes, an unpopular one. No matter what someone's opinion is on this matter, I don't think any consumer wants 200% price increases on items overnight.

Voicing your discontent does a lot. If more people voiced their opinion, companies will notice. It's very important to let them know that many of us are unhappy about their business practices. Without us, there is no them. Saying nothing means they will continue their unethical practices, but I get it, you don't care! No skin off your back. You aren't buying anyway, so let the show go on!

 

Is that "Georgetown record store" Orpheus Records, which went out of business last year in its subsequent Arlington, VA, location?

 

Yeah, I bought a couple Gabriel Clarity's, and I was planning on getting the others in the near future. I can't afford the whole shebang all at once. When I went to purchase another title from MD, the cost increased by 50%, WTF? I understand that things go out of print, but three months is a little short lived. It hardly gives the consumer on a budget time to acquire these titles.

 

Legacy is producing the new Hendrix titles for around $17. for a single disc, and the quality of the vinyl surpasses anything Classic has put out there. I feel that Classic Records is gouging.

 

AS and Classic records are entlited to raising prices surely and we are entlited not to buy from them anymore...........that's also "capitalism"

 

I bought a beautifully-mastered 200G CR Lp of "Tommy." The pressing is noisy, very noisy. It has both of the SVP problems noted in the last CR blog post. I have used CR's "contact us" link on their website. Several weeks have gone by and I have heard nothing.

Hobson & Co. may master records well, but their product QC is not good in this instance, and their customer service apparently does not exist. Not a recipe for a long-lived business, and one that made me pass up an impulse CR buy today--too much of a gamble on the pressing quality.

Better not to have a "contact us" link at all than to have one that's ignored.

 

Sorry! ...but you can't take the classroom out of the professor. It just bugs me when people appeal to things that are supposed to have some prestige value, like 'capitalism' or 'science', as a support for their argument, but in a way that shows that they actually don't completely understand what the concepts mean. The 'teaching' impulse takes over. Bad habit. I'll shut up now.

Geoff

 

That's not the whole story, of course, but I get your point. Lots of new Indie discs as that price, with most domestic reissues of quality a bit higher at $22-23.

 

The problem here is what is genuinely out of print from the Classic catalogue. The rumours and pricing policies at AS may have distorted the situation. The move of stock holding and distribution outside the company does not equate to all licences expiring or most titles being OOP.

Look at the Classic web site. PG clarity titles are still listed and they are still on sale at Themusic.com at normal prices. They also are still updating the site and have the new PG release announced by Mike Hobson listed.

It is obviously in AS's interests to give the impression that supply is now short and near its end. That will make desperate audiophiles rush to buy titles all at once rather than over say a couple of years. All the stock may disappear quickly but how long before we find OOP titles that we pay a premium for being repressed? Classic has in the past revived OOP titles after a period of several years usualy on a new vinyl format.

 

Well, perhaps AS should list which titles are still in print or oop to clarify the prices? Maybe CR can do this on their website to put to rest the rumors. If something is still in print then it should be normal retail prices and if it is oop then so be it. Do vendors actually have to honor retail prices or is everything a free, Scrooge market?

 

Orpheus was the first store that came into my mind when I read it....Smash certainly never carried Ry Cooder albums! Orpheus had a well-known reputation for outrageous prices, and I definitely paid too much for a couple of things there myself (80 bucks for a Sire reissue of Nuggets....insert that "fool and his money" phrase here). I heard Richard Carlisle had mellowed on his pricing structure over the years....but back in the late 70's and 80's, he had a pretty negative reputation among colleagues in the area. I knew he had moved his store out to Clarendon (?) I believe, but hadn't heard he'd finally closed shop. I've been away from DC for quite some time.