Fremer's review of a 90k turntable system!!

Stereophile's reviews of the US$90k turntable and the US$350k Wavac amplifiers have gained them more publicity and made the magazine more talked about than anything else in recent years. You just can't buy that sort of publicity.

If you were the publisher of Stereophile would you then think that the space was wasted?

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I quite disagree. Reviews of state of the art equipment are hardly silly for those who are in pursuit of state of the art. There are more perspectives of this hobby than just yours. I have no use for reviews of budget equipment but i don't call them silly and dismiss them as frivolous and useless. I happen to have a TT set up that retailed close to 40K. Rest assured reviews on such things were of interest to me back when I was considering thi rig. Now I would never buy any piece of equipment based just on a review but the reviews still are interesting. One person's pursuit of state of the art is another persons idea of elitism and materialism. Perhaps you should consider a subscription to The Sensible Sound. I doubt they would ever review such a piece of equipment and they probably share your opinion that it is silly and a nothing more than a display of elitism and materialism.

 

Fair enough. Apologies. I'll consider my elitism and materialism comments to be incorrect but I have doubts.

I think I have not spoke clearly about this. If more than 99.9999% of listeners will never entertain the idea of buying such a table, how is it of use and not a waste of space? I'm sure there is a percentage of people who are simply interested and entertained in reading about such a thing and gaining knowledge about it. Good for them. I consider it a complete waste of space...for me. And everyone I know.

 

No need to apologize for an opinion at this forum, there's plenty to go 'round. Reviews of these items are like car magazine reviews of Ferrari's. The vast majority of us will never plunk down $250,000 on a car, but they're neat to read about. Ditto the ultra expensive, cutting edge audio equipment. These pieces of gear also serve the purpose of pushing the technology forward, which will eventually find its way into less and less expensive gear.

 

Excellent point. At CES, you could hear the buzz about "The Turntable" and "The Review."

 

I agree. I will never be able to buy a TT costing 90k - if one day I could buy one costing 9k, I will be veeery happy. But I want to know how a 90k TT sounds, and what it has that a 9k or a $900 TT don't have.
Also, it was good to see a turntable on a Stereophile's cover.

 

Funny, they love tube amplification despite measurments tellling them that they are inaccurate tone controls. Equipment doesn't necessarily have to be flat nor accurate (whatever that is). You just have to know it and know what to expect from it. Anyway, Tetra speakers are quite nice. If Stereophile doesn't like them, that's no reason for others not to enjoy the way music sounds through them. That goes for any piece of gear.

 

I personally would have made a nice downpayment on real estate with an extra $90K. At least that item appreciates!

 

As many of my fellow skiers can attest, it is absolutely amazing how many multi-million dollar ski homes surround the ski areas at Aspen, Vail, Jackson Hole, Deer Valley, Telluride, etc. Also, it doesn't take long walking around NYC or LA to see a Maybach ($370G+), Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc. drive by. The past couple of decades have been very kind to many Americans, and there is a lot of disposable income out there being spent on pure luxury items.

I think we would generally agree that any turntable costing more than $5,000 to $10,000 is going to suffer from the law of diminishing returns. Yes, a Goldmund Reference, Rockport Sirius, Walker, Continuum or other super-exotic TT (yes, I know some of these aren't made anymore, but they command steep prices in the pre-owned market) may sound terrific, but probably won't blow the doors off of a $5,000 to $10,000 VPI. BUT that kind of exotic TT can be a lifelong purchase, will be a beautiful instrument, will be as "sexy" as any audio component can be, will be immensely pleasurable to use, and will be a prized possession for an owner who cherishes high end audio equipment (as long as it works). For a hi fi nut who has more money than he knows what to do with, what would be a better purchase?

Don't make the assumption that the wealthy owner is a fool who is easily separated from his money. Unless he was born rich, he had the smarts to make the money. The purchase of an exotic TT can be an immensely satisfying purchase for the right person - money well spent from his perspective. He knows exactly what he is doing. It's up to you to decide whether you enjoy reading about that kind of exotica.

 

But it isn't to me.

I would much rather Stereophile (or any other audio magazine) publish reviews on equipment I'll never own in this lifetime than another "sounds great except for the blown left channel on the pre-production model but we recommend it highly anyway" article on intergrated amps.

It's not wasted space...it's more to read. I'm "simply interested and entertained in reading about such a thing". Or maybe I'm just entertained simply.

Hell, I want two of those tables so I can sit between them and see if I can "magnetically levitate" as well...

David
At the Station

 

No offence Lee, but this implies you don't really have the money. To be in the market for any luxury consumer item costing around 6 figures means that you really have a very large amount of totally disposable cash. The key word being "disposable".

 

Never would bitch because one doesn't have enough money to buy one? Neither would I. It still doesn't mean that one can't have an opinion that this table is just plain silly, can it? Lotsa people are fascinated by it. I'm here to be what looks like the lone voice in saying it is silly, a waste, and the article is a waste of print. (feel free to call my table silly, it's only an inanimate object. ) Meanwhile, people over in the music forum were discussing how Stereophile reviewed only one newly released lp. Just as they always do. And yet, I still look forward to the few reviews on lps in Stereophile because sometimes they do give a perspective on the lps pressing/sound quality but those are few and far between because they are too busy pandering to audiophilia excess. Gotta pay bills, I guess. Ah, never mind. Maybe I'm just tired of reading about all this equipment in general and this recent issue just pushed me over the edge.

Further, other than people saying it causes a stir, I don't see it. How does this happen? Sure, maybe it might cause a stir among a few audiophiles who are into digital. I think this table isn't going to affect anyone outside the realm of audiophilia and thus will have very little impact on any aspect of the analog equipment or music industry.

 

You are definitely not the only one. My dad subscribes to Stereophile and the $90k turntable issue was lying around at christmastime. It was an attention grabber all right, but the whole thing was a joke, with everyone taking time out to make fun of it. A lot of people in the audiophile world just don't realize how detached from reality their hobby has become. A $90k car is one thing, but a 90k turntable ? How far exactly do people think this technology can be taken? It's a turntable, not the space shuttle.

 

I don't understand your comment about a 90K car. If I had the money I'd jump on the Rockport System III Sirius (only about 75K when it was available) and I'd NEVER buy a 90K car. I don't value the driving experience as much as I value the listening experience. A car can take me from here to there, a music system can take me from here to ANYWHERE...

 

How much of the $90K is for:

The technology?

The fancy machine shop work?

Other?

WVK

 

Congratulations on your purchase. It is a beautiful TT and I am sure you will get many years of enjoyment from it. (I can't comment meaningfully on the sound; I heard the Continuum at HE2005, but those were not optimal circumstances).

In assessing the cost of any component, I think an important issue is the amount of use that the owner will get from the component. Grooves, inasmuch as you are a professional reviewer and specialize in vinyl, it is probably a fair guess that you will get an extraordinary amount of use from the TT. While I concede at the outset that I am not adjusting for the time value of money or resale value, I think there is a decent argument that a $85,000 turntable that is used to play 1500 LPs per year for 15 years ($3.78 per LP play) is in reality less costly to its owner than a $10,000 TT that is used to play 500 LPs per year for 5 years ($4.00 per play). And, if you can get the $85,000 TT at a discount, even better. OTOH, if a Continuum is purchased as a toy for a rich guy who doesn't play 100 LPs in a year, it is an exorbitant expense.

BTW, I've owned my TT (a Goldmund Studio) for close to 20 years. It is not quite a Continuum, but it has given me many years of pleasure.

 

I partially disagree and I think you partially don't understand. My opinion was that more pictures or schematics would be complimentary to the prose. Most of us readers have never, or will never, see the device. The Caliburn is so complex I felt the review needed a schematic or two to help the reader understand the engineering.
I started this thread because I was truly impressed with the engineering, particularly magnetic levitation of such a significant mass.

 

I don't think you got my point, since I find myself in agreement with you. Still, I do enjoy Stereophile because, funny as it seems, you can be sure that the level of love the reviewer has over certain piece of equipment is proportional to the level of hate the technical reviewer has for said piece.

It's almost as if the most inaccurate components generate the most gushing praise.

We probably like listening to stuff we haven't heard before. I don't know.

 

Now that's a reasonable perspective. Yes, it is stupidly expensive, but whether or not it is worth the money depends on how much you have and how much you care about listening to music. As between a $90,000 turntable and a $35,000 watch? No contest for me. A Timex will keep equally good time.

One other thing to consider: the technological advances made on the Caliburn may well become available on far less expensive 'tables and then everyone can benefit....unless you're one of those self-loathing audiophiles who thinks everything sounds the same (or no better than your rig), in which case, change hobbies!

One more thought: When I buy a $90,000 turntable with 12,000+ LPs to play, I think I'm getting much more for my money than someone who spends that much on a sports car to drive around L.A. where the roads are so clogged you almost can't drive...

 

Steve Hoffman:

"Of course, not even rich dudes would ever spend that much money on a table. Fun to read the reviews though, like reading all about a test drive of the new Aston-Martin DB9. Never be able to afford that car. Always wanted one. Sad that I can't get one. NEVER would bitch that the article is elitist though just because I don't have enough money to buy one. Same for the turntable.

It's great that an antiquated device like a turntable is causing a stir. Makes people remember vinyl and that is always a good thing in my book. We sell more LP's, people talk about their old records and buy new ones. Cart. makers develop new lines. All good. NOTHING bad or a waste..

By the way, I personally saw two people put in an order for that wacky turntable at their room at the St. Tropez hotel at CES though. Some people actually have a lot of money. God bless 'em if they want to spend it on a table like that rather than an indoor golf course.... To each his or her own."
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Well Steve, your post begins by saying that no one would buy one and ends with two people did! I can tell you that a wealthy fellow in L.A. (an investor in a popular music night spot there) with a huge record collection and a fine stereo, traded in his highly regarded air bearing arm equipped 'table for the Continuum. It was installed after CES and he emailed to tell me how much better it is than what he had and that my review was "right on the money."

Should anyone post a message here saying that the Continuum is noisy and that it can be heard across the room, etc., please don't believe it. That is simply an outright lie. The 'table is absolutely silent. What's more, I have had it now for about 5 months and it has given me zero trouble. And has required zero "tweaking." The speed is precisely where I left it in August--exactly 33 1/3 and exactly 45. The vacuum and all associated computer controlled systems have been 100% reliable: something one should expect for that kind of money, and for a turntable designed by some of Australia's leading academics in metalurgy, systems integration, electronics, etc. This is NOT a homemade 'table.

I played a CD-R I made using it of Steve and Kevin's 45rpm mastering of "Waltz For Debby" at CES and I guarantee you no one thought of the technology as "antiquated!"

In fact, here's part of an email I just got from an acquaintance I ran into at the show---I know there's something crazy about analog to digital from vinyl sounding better than analog to digital from tape but there are reasons.....:

Michael,

You have restored my enthusiasm and passion for musical reproduction. I thought I had become jaded because my high-end digital playback devices and other high-end equipment simply didn't involve me in the the music. Certainly not as when I was younger. I remember well listening to The Sounds of Silence album (and title cut) over and over and never tiring or suffering from listener fatigue. And, as a lad, I can assure you that my audio equipment was not on a par with what I own today. That money went into my Gibson ES-345TDC guitar and Fender Bandmaster amp.

The common denominator between past and present at Alexis Park? Analog reproduction! Your demo absolutely reconnected me to the music in a way that had not been done for years. I'm not jaded, analog is vastly superior, more involving and more musical than any digital-based medium I've yet heard. Yes, I realize the CD you played was digital and there was D/A but the source was pure analog. I realize I'm preaching to the choir but thanks for restoring my faith in musical reproduction. I'm going to do something about it because I still have 300 great vinyl albums.

A favor? I mentioned I was going to contact you and request a copy of the CD you played at Alexis Park. If you can oblige me this favor, I shall never forget it."

I bought my Continuum and while I got a break on it, it cost me a great deal of money...enough to buy a very nice car---and not a KIA! Stereophile does not allow us to buy for a "token" price. The price we pay must at least cover the actual cost of manufacturing the product and as you all know (I suspect) the usual ratio is conservatively 1:4. That is, by the time a product is manufactured, boxed, shipped, distributed, wholesaled and retailed, the actual retail price is at least four times the manufacturing cost. So you do the math....which is something you cannot do when reviewers get "long term permanent loans" on equipment...which is something I do not do. I own my reference system. thank you. This has been an unpaid political announcement.....

 

On the former, sure. On the latter, no way. It is not as black and white an issue that one can say: "well, I have the money to get this $90K table but I won't just because I don't care enough about listening to music."

 

Absolutely true, but the reason for this may be marketing/image-making rather than real desire. The number of $300,000 to $1.2 million super-exotic Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Bugattis, Aston Martins, etc. (I'm talking the top-of-the-line limited edition models here, not the lowly $160,000 entry level models) sold is probably tens of times larger than the number of super-exotic TTs sold in the $25,000 to $100,000 range. But none of those supercars purchased in the US can be "exercised" effectively on public highways, and extremely few are ever taken onto racetracks (indeed, many of their drivers may not have the expertise/nerve/desire/lack of common sense to drive them at anywhere near their limits). Plus, they are difficult to take to many places. Who wants to park a $650,000+ Enzo Ferrari at the local mall? They typically end up with very low mileage. It is easy for many of us "car nuts" to appreciate the beauty and craftsmanship of these magnificent automobiles, but it is also difficult to get much effective use out of them.

OTOH, it is relatively easy to get a lot of use out of an exotic turntable, provided that it is reliable. The owner can derive pleasure out of each play, and no special tracks are required (other than the tracks on some good vinyl). Perhaps the real challenge for Continuum -- and for other high end manufacturers generally -- is to make a high end component purchase into the same image-building transaction as is currently perceived for an exotic sports car purchase. (This may require thinning the audiophile ranks of geeks, but that should not be a threat to any of the members of this Forum.)