For sound quality, which Genesis L.Ps should I go after: U.S or U.K

Is it my bad luck or is US and UK Charisma vinyl exceedingly noisy? I have early pressings of Genesis, Van Der Graaf and Peter Hammill records that sound pretty good but it took me forever to get anything that wasn't overly crackly.

 

For Nursery Cryme bargain hunters:

OK, an update. I managed to acquire an early "Large Mad Hatter" UK pressing of Nursery Cryme on ebay. Looks like it comes from the exact same master lacquers as the hallowed Pink Scroll Charisma pressings. The posters who mentioned their Mad Hatters having the same matrix numbers as the Pink Scrolls are absolutely correct. The dead wax says "CAS1052 A1U Hiltop" on side one and "CAS1052 B2U" on side two. Stampers are RT and RP--they are using the Gramophone system, which makes this stamper numbers 29 and 25, respectively. Bargain hunters will want to note that I searched Popsike and checked out the old auctions for "Pink Scroll" copies. Those sell for $200-400! Anyway, some Pink Scrolls in those auctions had stamper codes as high as RM, which is stamper 25.

Anyway, my copy cost GBP 14 including shipping, but a Pink Scroll with the stamper code one lower went for GBP 209. That's a lot to pay for a label! http://www.popsike.com/GENESIS-NURSERY-CRYME-ORIGINAL-UK-PRESS-PINK-SCROLL/260187185144.html

So one day, the pressing plant ran out of Pink Scroll labels, and switched over to Pink Mad Hatters. I seriously doubt there was much difference otherwise.

The copy I got had some minor water damage to the bottom of the otherwise mint cover, and the record looked awful, it was dirty. I cleaned it twice on the VPI and demagnetized it, and...stand back, it sounds awesome!

I feel now that the first pressing A1U B2U is the one for this record. I had not heard one of these before, and therefore loved the Classic Records pressing, which was the best I had heard. But the 1st press Charisma is the real deal. It sounds like it came from a master tape. In contrast, the Philips German blue label pressing (recommended by some posters) is very nice and pressed on quiet vinyl, but sounds to me like it was sourced from a tape copy. Having done enough analog studio recording, and making a few LPs myself, I recognize that sound. Also, back in the early 70s a tape dub went from one 1/4" tape to another 1/4", so we are talking a pretty significant degradation in sound. All the US pressings and the later Charisma "Blue Label" and "Small Mad Hatter" pressings, which are made from different lacquers, have that "tape dub" sound. Add that to the poor quality control of Charisma records, and you have a real mess.

Comparing the A1U B2U Charisma to the Classic was fun. The Classic has the quieter backgrounds--but surprisingly, not much quieter. Maybe I got lucky... The Classic has that slightly bright tube compression thing going on that is typical of the Grundman studios. That can be a pleasant sound, but it makes the Classic record a lot less dynamic than the first pressing. Also, on the Classic pressing I finally noticed some tape artifacts--the master tape must have aged somewhat, if Classic did indeed use the master tape. However, the first pressing and the Classic sound similar enough to conclude that both are sourced from the original master IMHO.

The A1U B2U "Large Mad Hatter" sounds lovely, with full bodied, dynamic detailed sound--and is currently a good deal. Perhaps a mint "Pink Scroll" with really early stampers might have an edge, but it will cost a truckload more.

Hope this info is useful to Genesis fans!

 

Nursery Cryme "Large Mad Hatter" w/ Charisma 'B & C RECORDS LTD' on the label--vinyl cut from same lacquer as "Pink Scroll" version:


edit: I had my stamper codes wrong--this one is RP which is stamper #26--only two stamper removed from a Pink Scroll with stamper RM which is #24.

 

I posted earlier in this thread that I always tend to go country of origin, and, prefer early pressing information. My UK mad hatter label LPs have the same matrix numbers as the coveted pricey 'pink Charisma's' - I presumed they'd sound about the same. Problem is, I never compared mine to the many other copies out there because, after buying thousands of records I kept re-learning, over and over, that early cutting/matrix + country of origin = the best sounding. This not an absolute however, but glad to hear in this case it works. Those Genesis Classics & pinks go for a lot.

 

This is from an online interview of my good friend Stan Ricker--who has handled more than his share of master tapes. Here he explains why you might prefer UK pressings, if the product is EMI, for example. I imagine most of the UK record companies sent tape dubs to other countries and only used master tapes for UK pressings.

Stan:
"Well, what I really like about the Beatles' tapes was, as probably with all EMI tapes, how well their use was documented. Each one came in a flat tin can, a mu-metal can, and taped inside was a log of when the tape was made, when the original was made, when the two-track tape was made, when it was edited, who edited it, who put the leader on it, and how many times it was loaned out, to whom and for what reason, which was neat; for us [MoFi], or American Capitol, or dubs for European distribution, or whatever. Except for the stuff that EMI released off of those tapes, everything else was made from tape copies of those originals. That's why the Capitol things that were released here in the U.S. sounded so different, indeed, from the original. The copies weren't all that very good."

 

This is interesting to me as I have two copies of this album. Both are 1U/2U.

Copy A is older and has the textured cover, though it is mad hatter. Side A says HILTOP and RD. Side B says JB and for the stamper number (I think) has two upturned Vs, or As without the crossbar.

Copy B also says HILTOP on side A but the stamper number (I think) looks like 1.1 P. Side B still has JB; the stamper number (I think) looks like 1.1 followed by upturned V.

The thing is, despite the identical matrix numbers I've always though Copy A sounds a lot better, even though Copy B is in better condition. Hard to explain, but this album and Foxtrot have a kind of sweet pastoral sound that I enjoy, but some pressings lose the magic.

I'm not sure how well it captures the sound, but I've posted a needledrop from the better (though more worn) copy here:

http://cid-d57e836204feb061.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/needledrops/hogweed-uk-vinyl.flac

Tim

 

Not sure how you are reading the stamper codes on your LPs. The earliest pressings of Nursery Cryme use the Gramophone system:
G=1
R=2
A=3
M=4
O=5
P=6
H=7
L=8
T=9
D=0

You may want to look again, and see if indeed the stamper codes actually are combinations of these letters. And the A's can look like upside down V's.

Therefore, if your copy A has stamper code "AA" on side two, that's 33--a fairly low stamper, indicating there's a good chance it is one of the first 15,000 to 20,000 records pressed of that title. Based on info I've found online, the Pink Scrolls go up to at least stamper RM (24), so your copy is not far removed. Maybe that's why you prefer the sound.

Perhaps your other copy was made off a much later stamper. At that point the mother may have been getting worn, so the mold was less crisp, resulting in degradation of the sound.

The textured sleeve is also an indication of an earlier pressings. The earliest Large Mad Hatters have the exact same sleeve as the super expensive Pink Scrolls.

--Tom

 

Well, let's imagine that 1.1 = M and upside down V = A. That would make copy 1 20 and 33, and copy 2 46 and 43. Possible?

The 1.1 really doesn't look like M though!

Thanks

Tim

 

This is fun ....

I also have a 1U/1U Foxtrot, textured sleeve.

Side A is PORKY and 1.1 0 (read down), side B is PECKO and 1.1 1.1

Trespass is 2U / 3U so less interesting I guess (still textured sleeve), but side A is M T and side B is R O.

TIm

 

I've never paid much attention to the mother/stamper codes because they say nothing about the wear or stage of life of those components, nor do they address the basic sound of that cutting -- i.e. the lacquer number. I've had lower mother/stamper numbers that sounded less lively than later ones, and vice versa. I just get copies and play 'em, then sit back to listen to determine which pressing I like the best.

 

Cutting engineers play as big a role as anything being discussed here, afaic.

Porky Peckham cuts I've heard seem to have been done with quite a bit of compression and upper midrange boost, for instance. Hearing a cut from a copy tape where less EQ boosting was done might lead one to believe that the amount of difference in one generation of tape is making a big difference, but it would seem more likely that the added midrange air in this example is the bigger factor.

 

It seems to me that it's possible that there are some late Pink Scroll pressings of Nursery Cryme that are bettered by early 2nd or 3rd pressings, so in that respect it can be a bit of a lottery. Depends how many Pink Scrolls were pressed and how worn the stampers were when the change to the Mad Hatter label was made. Mines an A1U - B2U, fairly heavy vinyl and sounds great. To be honest even the blue label reissues sound better than any CD versions I've heard.

 

You are so right that there are so many factors regarding the stamper codes, and it's probably not worth getting too caught up in worrying about them. I was merely trying to show that there must not be much difference between a Pink Scroll NC and a much less expensive Large Mad Hatter.

I am starting to notice (now that I am paying attention) that there can be noticeable differences between copies with "lower" stamper codes and significantly "higher" stamper codes. The lower codes can be on thicker vinyl (I have at several titles that do this--and the vinyl gets progressively thinner over as many as four copies, following the order of the stamper codes), and things like labels and packaging change over time. Regarding sound, YMMV!

Maybe if one does not have the luxury of comparing many copies of a certain album in person, choosing a copy with lower stamper codes might be a way of hedging one's bets toward getting a good copy.

Otherwise, why do 1st pressings records with lower stamper codes advertised often sell for a higher price? Is it just mystique?

 

Does anyone know who cut the 1st press Nursery Cryme? It says "Hiltop" and "JB". Was it Peckham? It doesn't really sound like his style to me, but I would be eager to learn if it was him.

 

I had a Pink Scroll and Large Mad Hatter of Lindisfarne's Fog On The Tyne. Both had the exact same stampers and same "Porky" in the deadwax. I compared them and heard no difference.

 

I don't think there is a Peckham NC. I think he started cutting Genesis LPs beginning with Foxtrot, but I'm not 100% on this.

 

Thanks! It's great to know that one doesn't have to pay a huge premium for a special label--
just to get a nice sounding copy

 

Yes, getting the German Philips and UK 1st pressing vinyls has rekindled my interest in Nursery Cryme. The CDs have not been an inspiring listening experience for me.

 

I've found that the type of sellers who emphasize that sort of minutia usually have excellent photos, well graded nice condition records, and so on - the higher prices often have to do with that sort of 'supported' hype + the good reputation.

Otherwise, first pressings tend to sell for more in part due to the fact the record is contemporaneous with its release, much like an early or first printing of a book.

The label still seems to primarily sell the record. I don't think 'most' of the buyers or bidders are paying attention to the sonic qualities. However, there is some relation between original or first cuttings and superior sonics. Not always, but often enough that the reputation has been established and seems well entrenched.

 

Another Update:

Two copies of UK 1st pressing B & C A1U B1U Foxtrot came in the mail this week. My previous experiences have been with just about every other pressing of this album.

The first copy has the George Peckham signature "Porky" and "Pecko" in the dead wax. The beautiful smooth sleeve has red writing on the side (one of the early jacket variations). It is an incredible disappointment. The vinyl looks brand new--not even sleeve removal marks, and no spindle wear. But, it is the most "crackly" thing I've ever heard! Two cleanings on the VPI machine made no difference whatsoever. I don't even know what to do with it, since the shipping back to England will make this a total loss.

Thank goodness the second copy arrived a couple days later. It also has the Porky and Pecko in the dead wax. The textured gatefold jacket has no writing in the spine. This copy had some marks on the vinyl--it would grade a VG+ in the Goldmine scale. So, without much optimism, I cleaned it on the VPI. Wow, this record plays with hardly any surface noise! When you drop the needle before "Supper's Ready", it's like a Japanese pressing--you're not sure system is on. It has less surface noise than my Classic Records pressing. More importantly, it kills the Classic version tonally. George Peckham really knew how to master a record.

 

Cracklies sounds like it may be one of two things: groove damage or smoke or oil shellac residue. I can hear the difference but not by written description. I would try to hand clean it first: a square of toilet tissue folded & wetted with 75-99% isopropyl alcohol. Lay the record down flat and run the tissue with gentle pressure circular, the direction of the grooves. If it comes up tan or colored - thats a start. Play and clean again from there. I've had plenty of crackly records clean up perfectly. If its groove damage there's not much you can do of course.

 

Thanks for the advice. The record plays with beautiful tone and no groove wear type distortion--just lots of loud random crackle. The seller claimed it was stored for a long time. Maybe there is mildew in the grooves. The VPI couldn't fix it...

A friend who is an expert at the "in the sink thorough soap and water" method offered to help out. It would be really cool to get the record to play well.

 

I found a same copy and had same impression. Do the copies with GP on both sides exist? If they do, how common in the used market?
Thanks.

 

Thanks for bringing up "Selling England by the Pound".

I've recently been on a mission to seek out the very first UK pressings of the early records with Peter Gabriel. This has not been easy, since the records are quite rare to begin with. If I am reading the stamper codes correctly, it appears these were made in the low tens of thousands, as opposed to US pressings that were manufactured in the hundreds of thousands. First press Genesis vinyl is rather unlikely to turn up in a Midwestern United States used record store! And, as I keep finding, Charisma Records had terrible quality control. So far, I've gotten three records with very off center labels, and am amused to see that many copies pictured on ebay have this same problem. One of my copies of Nursery Cryme is so bad that I've got to run to the turntable right at the end of "Fountain of Salmacis" and pick up the tone arm, or the stylus will be slamming into the label

Far worse, three out of four Genesis Charisma records I've acquired has had bizarre loud crackle that won't go away with cleaning. I've corresponded with several top record collectors in England and they have also confirmed the ubiquitous Charisma crackle problem. Weirdly, the copies that crackle loudest appear super clean with no spindle marks, and could easily grade mint minus. And, there isn't the characteristic tired groove wear sound that one would associate with a record played with a worn stylus. I am guessing that these records are possibly bad pressings to begin with. (no wonder they remained virtually unplayed!)

But, getting back to "Selling England by the Pound", a copy arrived in the mail a week and a half ago--a very first UK pressing A1U B2U, with "Porky Ray" and "Pecko" in the dead wax. It was clean but had visible scratches and spindle marks. I figured, here we go again, and reluctantly put it on the turntable. There was an unexpected silence. Then the music began, clear and detailed, with Peter singing "Can you tell me where..." This particular copy has practically no surface noise! It must be a freak of nature. Even the Classic Records180 gram reissue has significantly more surface noise.

There might be three or four pops scattered throughout the entire UK pressing, but otherwise it is astonishing. More significant is the tone. This album sounds really vibrant. The acoustic guitars and vocals sound "right there". Only the drums are a bit unsatisfying as they are oddly mixed very low. The drum tone is good, the drums are just quiet.

I have had many pressings of SEBTP, and the UK 1st press and Classic records are the only ones that sound to me like they were sourced from the master tapes. Both version sound really good, but the UK 1st press is more dynamic, and basically more "fun" listen to. If you can find a clean UK Porky copy you will have struck gold

I would be curious to hear a George Piros US cut again. Is there any reason to think it was sourced from the original tapes? I seem to remember that I didn't care for it. Now that I've heard the first UK pressing (on a freaky clean playing copy) it's hard to imagine anything better than the Porky cut.

 

I can't imagine a US Piros cut is going to better the UK. I am a big fan of GP but thats not to say that everything he cut sounds 'the best'. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I recently picked up the Classic Nursery Cryme - (how it sat in the bin for the last couple years without selling I don't know, but there it was...) Its too early to say which one I'll play more but so far I prefer the original UK (-1U) by a bit. Something about the overall sound of those originals. The Classic has a beefier sound primarily in the low end and is superb. It may be a system dependent sort of thing.