Finding The Best Sounding Genesis (Part II), Album By Album...

But not the UK or WG Duke V/C?

 

But not the UK or WG Duke V/C?

 

I don't have the WG but the UK V/C is different than the French V/C.

 

Oops, yes: Abacab. (U.S. Abacab to V/C/ Abacab is to (?) U.S. Duke to V/C Duke.) The other one where the volume levels of different songs were normalized might have been the U.S. ATOTT ...

 

This is an extremely long thread and I'm sure this has been commented on, but just wondering about opinions of the Vertigo Genesis s/t.

I believe I read that the Vertigo Abacab has the same mastering as the 1st pressing Atlantic, is that right?

 

One more interesting comparison, I think. Duke US WEA vs the Victor of Japan (Japan for US Atlantic).

Duke US WEA: 87.0 % 5:31.573 0.1326 6C2B1AC4 87.0 % 00E1AF37 51.1 % B6B1D1E7 89.1 % 0DAB6226 87.0 % AFFC8373 87.0 % 5:01.667 0.0906 779D8357 89.1 % 25208C75 89.1 % 3AF9C790 89.1 % 44963AD6 86.5 % C5C30AA6 87.0 % F92127DC 87.0 % B1A08208

http://download.yousendit.com/D25A0BF14617FAFB


Duke VOJ: 87.0 % 5:32.040 0.1323 A4D20D8C 87.0 % B4AC054E 51.1 % 25A57F8B 89.1 % 6CBD41BD 87.0 % AFFC8373 87.0 % 5:01.693 0.0906 779D8357 89.1 % 25208C75 89.1 % 3AF9C790 89.1 % 44963AD6 86.5 % C5C30AA6 87.0 % F2F3BD7E 87.0 % 6970E763

http://download.yousendit.com/8AE5AC1D169D89BA

Note that some of EAC's CRC numbers are the same, but some are different. I picked tracks 1 (different, the links) and 6 (same) and I also put down the exact lengths and the RMS values from GoldWave. All the peak values are the same, but could the songs with the different CRC's be slightly different masters? A few people in the past have said that the US WEA is preferred. I don't even know what the CRC's are really, check sums of some sort.

 

Awesome thread. Coincidentally, I just happened to stumble on some early Genesis CDs last weekend:

Trespass (V/C) - Really like this one, very warm and immediate, and not muffled at all to my ears.

Nursery Cryme (Atlantic) - Not bad, not great. A tad brittle and shallow, maybe not the greatest source tape?

Foxtrot (Atlantic) - This one's a winner, very nice presence and clarity without sounding like it's inside a vacuum (like the bizarre sound of the DE).

Live (Atlantic) - Also sounds good, for a live album recorded way back in '73.

Slightly off topic, I also found:

The Yes Album (Atlantic) - Not bad, very close to how I remember the vinyl sounding. Think I still prefer the Gastwirt remaster, though.

 

Anybody with any thoughts on this now while the sample is still up?

Raf?

 

I have both copies and the Vertigo is much harsher, much more treble and practically no bass to speak of. I've read in this forum though the Vertigo is a pre-emphasized CD and that may explain the sound quality issue (high treble, no bass). I have the new Cambridge Audio 840c CD player and i've been wondering of late if it's possible that new CD players cannot de-emphasize old CDs. Since I have no other pre-emph CD i cannot do another test for this theory. Maybe someone has an answer to that question. Again I've read in previous threads that some people think that the Atlantic/Vertigo have the same mastering. It is very clear to my ears they are not. Whether that is due to the above query we'll see.

 

Kevin,

I lined up the samples in Cool Edit, inverted one and pasted over the other and they cancel out completely. There are timing differences but no mastering difference.

Bill

 

In some cases this is true, e.g., see here:

http://stereophile.com/mediaservers/406olive/index4.html

while others decode it perfectly:

http://stereophile.com/hirezplayers/1007eso/index4.html

If you play around in Stereophile's reviews, you'll see several high-priced and highly regarded players that fail to implement de-emphasis correctly, though not as badly as the Olive player in the first link.

 

The US WEA Duke I have differed very slightly from the Japan pressed Atlantic version, as I have stated. I don't know what samples Kevin uploaded but others have confirmed the difference.

 

Thanks for those links . It was either that or send me to the mental institute

 

Jeff, I don't doubt you, I'm just stating that those two particular samples cancel out. I own the made in Japan version of Duke but have never heard the US WEA.

 

I don't hear that at all. I like my Abacab Vertigo a lot. The drums sound better for one thing. It must be a pre-emphasis problem on your player.

 

I hear ya, no worries at all. Just pointing out the difference I heard for anybody who hasn't been on this entire thousand page journey...

 

Gotcha!

 

Hey fellows, could we have a recap of recommendations? I'm okay with a consensus pick and a minority report for each title.

I've read just about every post, and I've been grabbing import titles on eBay and really enjoying a long second honeymoon with Gabriel-era Genesis. Thanks to Jamie and all of you for the great listening. Now I want to get close to the BEST listening!

 

Here's the tally so far: The Definitive versions are a waste. Too much EQ and noise reduction. The new remixed discs are like taking an ice pick in the ear. They're amateurishly compressed and EQ'd, although the 5.1 mixes can be entertaining.

For the most part the Virgin/Charisma CDs and sometimes the Atlantic CDs are the way to go although it changes from album to album.

From Genesis To Revelation- DCC (Disky CD is a digital clone of DCC with some volume changes and reversed channels, etc...)

Trespass- Divided between V/C and MCA. Some prefer the V/C but I don't. It initially has a pumping sound similar to NR and generally sounds muffled to me. I much prefer the MCA, and although it's on the brighter side it's tone is similar to my UK vinyl.

Nursery Cryme- V/C.

Foxtrot- Virgin Charisma from the 4 CD box set or the Nimbus mastered V/C CD.

Live- Either the Atlantic (non-DE) or the V/C. Different mastering but both are excellent. I prefer the V/C.

Selling England By The Pound- V/C and Atlantic are identical.

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway- V/C

Trick Of The Tail- V/C and Atlantic are identical (with some volume changes).

Wind & Wuthering- V/C.

Seconds Out- V/C

... And The There Were Three...- I think Jeff likes the V/C. I'm still waiting for mine to be delivered sometime this week.

Duke- US WEA Atlantic (although the channels are reversed). The French V/C (only the French V/C) is digitally identical after some slight volume changes and it has the correct channel assignments.

ABACAB- Atlantic CD. I like the Gold CD too.

Three Sides Live- Atlantic or V/C

Self Titled- Atlantic

 

The short-answer (Jeff's updated list) can be found here:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2945876&postcount=922

For a little more dialog start here: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=105179&page=44 at post #871 and read the rest of the page.

If this monster thread has shown us anything it is that we probably need to be careful when using the terms V/C or Atlantic with regard to some titles as there are variations within a group. We have identified at least 4 versions of Live, and I think there are at least 3 V/C versions of Foxtrot!

It would be nice if this forum supported editable front pages, like the AVS Forums, so a thread owner could update information based on posts that are deep into the thread. This would prevent folks having to read 50 or more pages (or 500 pages if you are talking Beatles or Macca) to find what they need. Does anyone know if this feature is supported here? If not, maybe we need to start creating FAQ files, otherwise we are doomed to keep repeating these discussions every few months/years.

 

Thanks, Jamie and Black Elk. Very helpful.

Actually, to get past the "those who don't remember the threads are doomed to repeat them," I think a wiki would be the best idea. Our own sh.tv wikipedia. There've been a couple of attempts over the years to get one going, but with no success. My thought is that once we get to something approaching consensus, the wiki entry could be distilled from the discussion, and then further refinements could take place there while the conversation could also continue on the Forum.

I wish the UK weren't so far away--I'm impatient for my V/C Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot to get here. I think the NC pressing is a Nimbus, but I don't really know.

And btw, I completely agree about the new remixes, Jamie. I bought ATOTT for the 5.1 mixes and the video extras, both of which I enjoy. The 5.1 isn't as imaginative as I'd hoped, maybe because the EQ and compression are so off-putting, but it's still nice to have this experience. That said, I did give the stereo remix a try and found it almost completely unlistenable. One of my favorite Genesis songs, "Ripples," has turned to hash in this mastering. The original has all sorts of delicate soundstaging choices and lovely phasing happening between the high-hats during the long instrumental section. That's all gone in the remix. Also, if I recall correctly, the remix doesn't do the really dramatic collapse-to-mono-explode-into-stereo thing in "Los Endos," one of my favorite bits on the record. Huh?

 

Have you heard the Vertigo for these?

 

There's no difference.

 

Duke Japan Atlantic vs US WEA: I uploaded the very first song, Behind the Lines. The CRC's are different, but if they cancel out, they must be the same. The CRC's match for quite a few of the tracks. All the peak values match between both discs. Strange if there are sonic differences between them.

Jamie- Look back at the last page. I think the V/C is a slight improvement over the US Atlantic for Abacab?

Oh yeah, in my long list of notes, for Trespass I had MCA being preferred for the 1st track, and the V/C for the rest of the CD. I now have both.