DVD-Audio Sales Five Times that of SACD Says RIAA Survey

I predicted over two years ago that DVD-A would become the mass market format and SACD the niche audiophile format. This is what is now happening. Nothing wrong with being either one. I dont think one is better than then other , they both sound good, but DVd-A allows the consumer to playback in any DVD player. That is perceived VALUE. That was the key that the SACD people missed.

Who, other than a music/audiophile geek (like me, and like all of us) wants to have to go buy a new player just to hear a little more resolution, much of which Joe Blow wouldnt be ABLE to hear in the first place? Of course, I did, and many of you did, but as Mike St clair says, we aint the general public.

Sony should have made the SACD Hybrid from the start and made that the spec.

 

Interesting story but I would not take the results at face value:

1. Soundscan data does not capture SACDs separately, in part due to the single inventory problem.

2. RIAA has been biased in favor of DVDA for some time.

3. The fact that results were issued first from the DVDA council leads me to believe they paid for the study. Perhaps they got their money's worth.

4. The numbers and responses don't jive with much anecdotal evidence including ABKCOs numbers on the Stones and Dylan or the DSOTM totals. Clearly volume is moving in quantity in SACD.

I will concede that DVDA may be more recognizable due to the overwhelming popularity of DVDs. Still I don't see Warner issuing my beloved Van Morrison albums.

 

I dont buy your argument for a SECOND that the RIAA is biased toward DVD-A. They want BOTH formats to work so that the industry is "saved" (fat chance that Hi Res is gonna save that industry.....nobody cares)

Also, to count the Stones disks, is in my opinon wrong. If 10 fans bought the Stones disks, 9.8 of them did not have a SACD player. They bought them for the Redbook. Hell the disks didnt even SAY SACD on them!!!

 

I finally got around to reading page 2 of the thread and I see several had the same thoughts regarding the survey.

I can tell you that I know for a fact that both APO and Chesky Records sell a MULTIPLE amount of SACD discs over DVDA.

The survey just does not seem right to me, even accounting for my pro-SACD preference. I like a lot of the AIX DVDAs I have though.

Does anyone also think the timing is a bit too coincidental with the new DVDA marketing initiatives?

We may yet see an official Sony & Philips response to this.

 

I have heard some things that lead me to believe that the RIAA feels DVDA can more easily be a unifying format. I think they would prefer, most of all, to have one replacement format for CD.

As an audiophile and serious music fan, I really don't care as long as Super Audio stays around for the next decade or two...

Mikey we have also talked about the Stones discs before. You simply can not say that X% bought the discs by mistake or purposely for the redbook layer...no more than I can Y% bought for the SACD layer. There is simply no data. I do suspect with the several million SACD players out there that the number may be higher than you obviously suspect.

 

Do these polled consumers even know what DVD-A is, because sellers on eBay sure as hell don't.

 

Mikey,

I noticed the survey results are not on the RIAA website. Why would RIAA as an unbiased source release the results to the DVDA Council yet not release the results to its website?

If they were unbiased, why would they not allow 2 of its largest members, Sony & Universal, who have substantial investments, to issue a comment or rebuttal?

Also, why are the results quoted in percentage terms and actual sales totals not given? I suspect it is because we will see the SACD totals do not include hybrid sales like the RIAAs previous surveys and therefore SACD sales are way under-estimated...

Also, Sony claims SACD is approaching 20 million sold by year end 2004. Let's say that through 2003, 10 million have been sold to consumers...even adjusting for prior years, how can DVDA outsell that number 5:1? The numbers simply don't add.

Something is very fishy here...hopefully Sony or Philips will issue a statement.

If the RIAA wanted to see both do well, they would have commissioned a study to add up all hirez sales and show how that TOTAL number has increased dramatically.

Finally, an audiophile comment...remember all the stories about LPs outselling hirez. How can the DVDA council state that DVDAs outsold LPs, that's another hirez format from my standpoint.

 

OK, I have 657 sacd and 0 DVD Audio and will never get any

Correction: I've just decided to buy all of the Steve Hoffman mastered DVD-Audios.

 

Heh. Neither do your typical Best Buy and Circuit City employees either...and they should know. They sell the blasted things!

 

Mikey,

are you saying that if people buy DVD-A without any interest in the hi-res content it's OK but if they buy a hybrid SACD without any interest in the hi-res content it shouldn't count as far as sales figures for hi-res formats are concerned?

Given that the error the survey quotes for the results is +/- 1.8% I can't see why we are arguing at all about which format comes out better. As far as I can see this survey tells us very little about the sales of either format apart from that, combined, they form a very small percentage of total music sales.



For the record I have 33 SACDs and 5 DVD-As.

 

Hey boys, I like both formats, and I believe that both formats will be around a long time.

My only argument with some of the discussion here is the notion that the RIAA has some sort of Machevellian plot against SACD. Thats just fantasy. Its in the RIAAs best interest to promote both formats equally, because different titles come out in different formats!!!! The TOTAL sales are what matter, not the breakdown.

 

Do either of you have the player to properly play the "other" format? If not, tnen this makes perfect sense. Why does every post about either one of these formats dissolve into an 'A' vs 'B' argument? Both formats are formidable and enjoyable. One is a 'CD' format and one is a 'DVD' format. They are two different beasts.

 

Just to clarify, both SACD and DVD-A (and all other DVD formats) are all based on the same technology in terms of the disc itself. CD uses an older technology which has a lower data density on the disc.

However, the format in which the data is stored differs between SACD and DVD-A. In fact, in terms of the format used, DVD-A is closely related to CD (using PCM encoding) whereas SACD is very different (DSD).

 

25 SACD's.....16 DVD-A's.....add another SACD Tuesday with Diana Krall's new one.
I started as a real DVD-A nut, but with the lack of new releases, and the quality of the SACD 5.1 mixes......I lean towards SACD.

I find that story unbelievable. I know 4 people (other than here) that even know what DVD-A is!

 

How many times have I heard from salespeople - that DVD-A won't play in your DVD player! Oy vey!

 

As I said before, I find the story hard to believe. I wouldn't believe that either format was selling 5 times more than the other (unless you threw all of the RS, DSTOM, and Dylan single inventory discs in the pot).

But, in a perfect world, you could find out the preferred format like this:

Release an album like LED ZEPPLIN IV on the same day in both formats - both with 5.1 mixes, with equal distribution, all stores having the same stock of both. Poll only those with universal players. What did they buy? Exclude the collectors who bought both (like me).

 

If the DVD-A format sold 5:1 over SACD, that would indicate that there are either five times as many DVD-A titles than SACD, or DVD-A had some "killer apps"--big sellers--that eclipsed SACD.

Survey's starting to look like marketing hype now, isn't it?

 

The plot thickens. This RIAA report directly contradicts the DVDA survey:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/pdf/2003yearEnd.pdf

So based off shipments to stores, 1.3 million SACDs were shipped versus 400,000 DVDAs. That's a much more believable set of numbers. And remember Soundscan does not track single inventory. Sony has said the Stones alone has sold 2 million worldwide. Plus the number of titles is about 2000:730 (!) in favor of Super Audio now.

This survey is Bullsh** folks.

Mikey, if the RIAA was not biased against SACD, why do they not have the survey on their website? why did they not have a rebuttal from the SACD camp? Why not show the the tremendous growth in hirez as a whole?

Like my old stats professor at the University of Virginia said...

If you torture the numbers long enough, they will say anything you want.

 

Lee,

That table only represents units shipped, not actual units sold. Just from observation at the retailers in my area both Hi-res formats are not moving particularly well. I would assume that in the SACD case units shipped include all Hybrid discs as well. If true, it seems Sony's predictions of 20 million units sold since inception is also far off from reality.

Bottom line is I don't believe a damn thing either Hi-res camp says in a press release.

J

 

Good call!

As the old saying goes... "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure..."

 

Yet it's a much better indicator of sales volume than this survey. Face it Justin, the DVDA Council is not conducting a fair survey on the marketplace realities.

According to Sony disc replication (production is counted) has exceeded 10 million as 2003. 20 million is a forecast through 2004. Let's take the 10 million number. How is DVDA going to outsell that 5:1? It can't. There is not enough interest or titles...

Justin, Also keep in mind that the production numbers are more accurate than Soundscan because they capture sales to people like Acoustic Sounds and Red Trumpet and all global outlets, neither of which the RIAA does.

I suspect that we will see some response from the Super Audio labels and manufacturers soon.

 

I do not. When I looked at the new digital systems a few years ago I felt that I had to make a choice. Based on auditioning, 2-channel focus, label support, and the type of music being released I chose SACD.

Of course. I was simply countering Jesper. Clearly it was humour.

I said nothing critical of the format I don't support. I just reiterated that I would not support it. In the same way, I don't "support" DVD-Video - I don't own a DVD player.

I agree that in some respects they are "different beasts", but not in the way you just outlined. As someone who has no interest in multichannel sound, SACD is more aligned with my preferences. The best DVD-Audio I have heard - some of Mark Waldrep's work on the AIX label - was wonderful, but surround sound is not my bag.

 

Face this reality, if there was enough mass interest in SACD or DVD-A, we'd see these formats in Wal-Mart's, K-Mart's, Target's, etc. across the country.

 

Quite true Brad.

Face another reality, if you will. If we saw hirez discs in Target and Wal-Mart, we would probably see less audiophile care and attention for many of our favorite albums.

A long-term profitable niche market may be more satisfying to the illustrious members of Steve Hoffman TV.