DSOTM Gold vs. SACD

This is good news. I have a Plextor drive I can possibly use with this...thanks for the links.

 

Lifted from another thread:

Here is how I would describe the differences between the UDI MFSL and SACD versions of Dark Side:

Both discs sound excellent, with no apparent compression. The SACD has much greater clarity than the MFSL version - individual notes are more distinct, and you can hear INTO the music better. The MFSL has a slightly warmer and fuller sound, due to a slight boost in the bass. The SACD is probably closer to what's on the tapes (perhaps a flat transfer) and sounds like a greatly improved version of the original Harvest CD. The MFSL has more of an analog sound, and more closely resembles the sound of the original Harvest LP. The SACD sounds a bit drier and thinner. Neither version is perfect - the SACD sounds a bit drier and thinner than Steve's work, whereas MFSL was a little heavier on the bass than Steve would have been, and some might find the MFSL bass heavy. You can DEFINITELY tell MFSL boosted the bass a bit on this disc, but it doesn't suffer from the exaggerated "smiley EQ" that ruined some of the later releases.

If you're looking for a warm and slightly fuller analog sound that fills the room, go with the MFSL. If you're more concerned with clarity and the texture of the individual instruments, go with the SACD. But you really can't lose either way.

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I prefer the MFSL by a slight margin. Note that this comparison is valid only for the UDI and SACD layer. The SACD redbook layer is horrible. I have not heard a UDII or the Japanese Harvest.

 

That claim sounds more like Jon Astley's inaccurate claim regarding his Deluxe Edition of Who's Next (we all know the Steve used the same master from the same box out of the same file cabinet Astley claims was used for the first time on his version).

Actually, I don't remember Guthrie making that statement, but I may not have caught all articles about the 30th Anniversary release, either.

 

Michael,

If they appear the same to a computer the computer is measuring the wrong thing.

 

That's exactly why I want to find out!

Computers were measuring the wrong thing when we found out the discs are bit identical. Now we move on to measuring jitter and error correction. The former is known to affect sound quality at certain thresholds, and the theory that the latter can makes some sense. If those measurements turn out to be the same, then maybe we can more on to something else.

Even though I am a hard science guy, I don't eliminate the possibility of something happening that science doesn't know how to measure yet. That's one of the reasons that I advocate blind tests when measuring fails to explain results (though I understand that we can't debate that here, and I understand why).

Anyhow, I don't want to debate you on UDI or UDII (I know you have near-religious feelings on the matter, and I'm more laid back), I just want to see if anybody here has the UDII and Plextools and can help me out.

 

I would like to know that as well. Why a computer can not distinguish differences that are perceived by the human ear yet some hold adamantly that these 2 pressings are the same based on this flawed instrument of measure.

The MFSL's are so old hat for me because I know that the Japanese black triangle is the best there is. FWIW it was Steve himself that told me to check out his preference and I did.

Sorry I no longer own the MFSL either UD1 or UD2.

FWIW I believe the UD2 differences are mainly because of different mastering decisions made by the USA production team.

 

Or maybe I should mix the garlic with chicken blood

 

Have you listened to the clips I posted above? The DSD and redbook layers sure sound extremely similar (if not the same) to me. I have a feeling the only thing different is the converters used.

 

Weird, they do sound alike. There's a post I found here somewhere that linked to an article claiming that redbook and DSD layers were very different in how they were mastered - besides the obvious fact that one was hi-res the other not. Search engine can't find the exact post but I know it's here somewhere. I'll take your word, Jamie, since you posted the clips, too and I'm hearing the same thing from them.

 

Good. You are learning.

 

not sure if you need anymore opinions but I have both the Mobile fidelity disc and the SACD - the SACD wins hands down

 

Welcome aboard! How does the SACD better the MFSL in your opinion?

 

Um, I've felt that way for 20 years....two years before I got on the internet, so I'm not sure where you would have gotten any other impression.

Not on Money (LOUD on redbook only). Also, relative levels (not necessarily loudness) have been tweaked throughout the entire album...the normal album in all other versions builds to a crescendo in 'Eclipse' that is not equalled by any other track. The new redbook has many songs that are as loud as eclipse.

 

That's an interesting point Michael. I guess with a piece like this there's a continuous flow throughout the record that needs to be addressed. Like you said, Eclipse should be the loudest song on the album.

Interesting.

 

Jamie, this is the exact reason I prefer the black triangle over all others. Proper balance. No additions, no subtractions in frequencies and no attempt at tape hiss removal.

Michael, excellent description and it's nice to see I'm not alone on this.

 

Can someone provide the matrix numbers for the Black Triangle DSOTM CD?

 

By the way, I mentioned a long time ago that some friends have been able to test the sonic effects of jitter by adding and subtracting a master clock to an Alessis Masterlink. You would be surprised what an impact it can have. Without the master clock, we can record with jitter around 100-200 picoseconds or a little lower. With the clock the jitter goes down to 25-40 ps.

The sonic differences are fairly surprising for low levels...soundstage seems more wide and there is a more open sound.

 

Mine is U 1A1 TO, and I've also seen U 1A3 TO, I think Dave said he has just 1A1, unless I'm mistaken. My disc clocks in at 42:54, although the total time in EAC adds up to 42:55. I contacted two different people who had the U1A3TO disc: one said the disc clocked in at 42:56, the other said it had a TT of 42:54. Not sure what that means, but I don't think all these discs were created equal. Setting the PE bit didn't work for my disc either...maybe I'm just a little too picky?

 

I hope I just bought the right one....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4705439143&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

Did I?

 

I remember reading that too, but I don´t have a link.

 

Hi Bob,

It certainly appears to be a CP35-3017 black triangle and it is nice that it comes with the OBI. I see the matrix code of your cd ends in TO - this means that it is a Toshiba pressing, which is the same as one of my versions of this cd. I acquired a second DSOTM black triangle recently that is a Sony/CBS CSR pressing with a matrix code of CP35-3017 51A2 +++++. I haven't had time to do a detailed comparison between the 2, but my initial thoughts are that the Toshiba version is quite a bit louder than the Sony CSR version. There is also a small timing difference between the two.

I understand that Nightgort Dave is going to be doing a comparison between the Toshiba pressing and another version (probably a Sony/CBS version) soon so it will be interesting to read his comments on the differences.

 

I will be comparing my 1A1 (no CSR) against the 13A1 TO version (IIRC). Not certain about the Toshiba/CBS/Sony thing though.

 

I wouldn't be certain who made your 1A1, but KeithH said that all the "TO" versions signify that they are made by Toshiba and that seems to make sense.

My pressings are:

CP35-3017-U 1A3 TO - 42:54
CP35-3017 51A2 +++++ (with CSR Compact Disc in inner ring) - 42:56 - this version also came with an OBI with no barcode on it. My guess is that it is a pretty early pressing, while the TO version is later.

The TO version sounds louder and more forward. I've been listening to the CSR disc the past hour and it is definitely quieter and more laid back, but sounds great when it is turned up. I had no idea when I purchased the CSR version that it was going to turn out to be different. I bought it mainly for the OBI, but I am glad I did.

Dave, my guess is that my CSR disc is the same as your 1A1, but if you want another to add to the shoot out, let me know.