Cinerama returns to Los Angeles

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Aug 30, 2009.

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  1. AudioGirl

    AudioGirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    That is a very big piece of magnetic film. What is the seventh channel for?
     
  2. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    For anyone who gets the chance, I highly recommend seeing How the West Was Won in 3-strip Cinerama. There used to be a Cinerama theater in Dayton, Ohio, and I made the trek to see that and This Is Cinerama. Very cool.
     
  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Originally, Cinerama theatres were equipped for 7 channels of audio to be fed to either 7 or 8 channels of amplification for the auditorium. The first 5 channels were always the five across the screen area: Left, Left-Center, Center, Right-Center, and Right. Channels 6 and 7 were for surrounds. Individual scenes could be laid out one of two ways. You could either have 6 go to the left surround and 7 go to the right surround, of you could send channel 6 to the left AND right surround and channel seven to a special surround channel that was dead-center at the rear of the auditorium. So, to review, it's 7-channel analog sound that could be steered to either 7 or 8 locations in the auditorium. How was the steering done? BY HAND! A member or the projection team (typically 5 people or more) would sit at a station within the auditorium and adjust the balances AND switch the surround modes by hand.

    As I've posted elsewhere (including post 3 of this thread), I own what I suspect may be the only surviving Cinerama sound control box. Here is a photo. Note the switch in the upper right to assign the surround channels to whichever format was appropriate for the scene at hand.
     

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  4. AudioGirl

    AudioGirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Thank you for that information. My husband has worked with restoring the Todd-AO process on a few films and they have magnetic tracks that are "locked in" volume wise. The sixth channel is a back-of-auditorium surround channel that is also at a fixed volume. Of course the sound channels are on the 70 mm print directly.


    Do not forget the booth pictures. We anxiously await them.
     
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I've temporarily posted a brief video walkthrough of the booth. PLEASE NOTE that the video starts with a "still" for something like 12 seconds. (Your video player is not broken!)

    http://web.mac.com/mlutthans/iWeb/Site%2032/Movie%202.html

    The last shot in the video is the 7-track audio player as it runs out of tape at the end of the show.
     
  6. AudioGirl

    AudioGirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    That is humbling, thank you. Is this three projector setup going to be permanent at the Dome? In other words, are they going to leave it like that even though they obviously won't be using it much?

    By the way, HOLIDAY IN SPAIN is the movie produced by Mike Todd, Junior, correct? The movie once called SCENT OF MYSTERY? My husband and his friend uncovered the original SCENT BOTTLES for the Smell-O-Vision system over at Todd-AO a few years back along with the original negatives for the movie. Too bad they can't re-create THAT at the Dome! He told me that the bottles still smelled like the various fragrances that they created for the movie back in 1959.
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    One and the same! This also has the "distinction" of being the only 70mm film to be optically split into three panels for presentation in Cinerama Theatres -- an absolutely pointless exercise, except for advertising purposes, as it most certainly made the film look WORSE. The presentation last Tuesday was in good ol' 70mm!

    The projectors in the Dome are permanently installed. In 2000 or so, I was at the Cinerama in Honolulu, and there the projectors sat. I contacted a friend at Pacific Theaters, and the projectors were transported to L.A. for refurbishment, and eventually installed at the Dome. I don't know if the audio unit is the one from Honolulu or if Pacific had an extra one in storage somewhere.
     
  8. Roninblues

    Roninblues 猿も木から落ちる。

    I remember as a youngster seeing these in San Francisco but the roller coaster footage had me hanging on.
     

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  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    You can see some original ads for HOLIDAY IN SPAIN here:

    http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/double_holiday.htm

    Regarding the audio, my guess is that the mono surround track from the 70mm elements was just split evenly between both channels when it played in 7-track "Cinerama," effectively making it 6-track "Cinerama."
     
  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

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  11. benjaminhuf

    benjaminhuf Forum Resident

  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    From what I hear from folks who would know, the 3-strip materials are significantly damaged/unusable. I suppose it's possible that something could be digitally doctored up for home video, but not for 3-strip theatrical presentation, which is a shame. (....and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a "restored" home release either. I think that realistically, the best they would do is a letterbox release from one of the CinemaScope composite prints, which would get you something like 2 and a 1/3rd panels and maybe 4-track sound, with added grain and poor color compared to the 3-panel materials -- but again, digital doctoring could give things a boost.)

    I've got a very odd 16mm film copy of one of the scenes from this film. It's a technicolor (or at least Kodachrome) print, so the color is great, and it's 1.33, so you get one complete panel and probably about a third of a 2nd panel (or combination of panels). The film was made for presentation in schools back in the early 60s.

    Clips here:
    http://web.mac.com/mlutthans/iWeb/Site%2028/16mm%20Cinerama.html
     
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Stumbled upon this scan on a hard drive today. This is one of my favorite Cinerama photos. I took this in 2003 during either HOW THE WEST WAS WON or THIS IS CINERAMA at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood. It's a 90-second exposure, during the movie, and you can see all three projection beams coming from the back wall.

    That guy in the photo in the polo shirt? That's CINERAMA ADVENTURE director Dave Strohmaier. I have no idea what had him so transfixed, but he stood there basically 100% still for 90 seconds staring at something. Made for a nice shot.

    Matt
     

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  14. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    I was living in Denver when that place was demolished in the early-90s, IIRC. I believe it's now a strip mall with a Barnes & Noble and a Starbucks.

    I drove by several times during the demolition, felt somewhat sad but didn't really think too much of it. At the time I was more of a fan of the big traditional 'movie palace'. Now that I'm in a mid-century obsession I finally understand what a terrible loss it was. :thumbsdn:

    dan c
     
  15. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I know Cinerama has some huge fans, but I was always annoyed with a bunch of its technical issues:

    1) you couldn't project a straight horizontal line, like a building, a billboard, or a city skyline, because it drooped on the size due to the steep curvature of the screen

    2) I could always see the edges between the three screens (actually two edges), and it annoyed me

    3) all the surviving Cinerama elements I see have different colors for each image, so they don't quite match in terms of brightness and color

    4) and the three panels all "jitter" at different times, because each projector has different flaws in its mechanical movement. (And god help you if there's a splice in one print and not the other two!)

    Don't get me wrong: I like some of the ideas of Cinerama, like a massive, immersive screen. But the technical limitations always bugged the hell outta me. I actually think Imax -- real Imax, not Liemax -- is improvement in many ways. I recognize that Cinerama has lots of nostalgia these days, and I did enjoy some seeing some first-run Cinerama films back in the day (including How the West Was One and Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm, which I saw when I was a kid), but even then, I noticed the above flaws. I can remember it especially bad with 2001, which I saw in both Tampa and (years later) in LA. That super-curved screen is a real problem.
     
  16. TeacFan

    TeacFan Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    Arcadia, Ca.
    Humbug ! :wave:
     
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Your are neither alone nor inaccurate in anything you say! Cinerama is a heavily flawed system, no doubt, and it certainly could have been better. For instance,

    1. Join lines: I've seen Cinemiracle, and the join lines were markedly less visible. Cinerama viewed Cinemiracle as a threat, bought it out, and then killed it. They should have, instead, bought it out and then utilized the improvements they had just purchased.

    2. Horizontal lines: If your booth is at zero degrees (most were not), you actually could *project* a straight line, but to anybody seated below projection level, because they were looking up at a curved surface in three dimensions, the line would look like it bent upward as it got closer to them (at the screen edges); to anybody who looked at the straight line from above the plane of projection -- such as in the balcony in Seattle -- it would look like it bent downward. Having said all that, most three strip booths were constructed a little higher that 0 degrees, which led to problems with....

    3. 70mm films like 2001. Why would these often look "extra curvy" in a bad way? Let's say your booth is 3 degrees above dead-center projection. When you are using three projectors, each third of the screen only has about a 50-degree curvature, which is basically nothing, so the projection-angle causation of the curved effect is fairly minimal. (The issues caused by perspective within the audience is still pretty pronounced in some cases.) When you project a single frame, wide image (such as in 2001), you have now essentially tripled the depth that the projector "sees," and if the angle is not dead-center, those "straight lines" really bend as they approach the edge of the screen. One thing that really gets under my skin is when people criticize the horizon sag (curving of straight lines as they approach the edge) of Cinerama, when in fact they are criticizing the horizon sag that happens in a Cinerama theatre whose booth is at too high an angle, such as is the case at the Dome in Los Angeles. One of the stone-cold REQUIREMENTS of Dimension-150 was zero-degree projection angle. To my eyes, D-150 was a vastly superior 70mm system than was "70mm Cinerama," precisely because of that zero-degree requirement. There were a few (very few) 3-strip Cinerama theatres that had zero-degree projection. Seattle is one of them. (The booth in Seattle is about 2/3rds back on the main floor, not above the back row as in L.A.)

    In terms of panel matching, starting around 1960, Cinerama insisted on IB Tech prints from Technicolor, and the matching they could do with color timing, etc., from shot to shot was extraordinary. Pre-1960 prints and prints from other sources (i.e., the "new" prints of This is Cinerama)....not so much. Point being: Cinerama itself was quite aware of that shortcoming, and took steps (probably too late) to make improvements.

    As far as the differing jitter, I don't find that too bothersome when I sit in the audience on most shots, but when I am a projectionist, it's the bane of my existence, since the job of the A or C projectionist is to watch that join line and adjust the framing (manually) whenever the joins are not right. I may go 5 minutes without touching the frame knob, but then have to ride it like crazy for 4 or 5 consective shots....then it's back to "steady" again for a few minutes.

    Matt
     
  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Continuing from above post:

    Below are two photos, both actual screen shots in actual Cinerama theatres taken by (actual) me:

    Top photo: Cinerama Dome, 2001, showing pronounced "horizon sag," obvious in the text along the right side of the screen. It creeps upward -- from any perspective in the theatre -- due to the high angle of the projection booth in that particular building.

    Bottom photo: Villa Cinerama, Salt Lake City, 1999. I have added a straight line (in white) along the bottom to show how straight the straight lines are with zero-degree projection angle, and this is a MORE DEEPLY CURVED screen and shorter throw distance than at the Cinerama Dome -- plus a wider AR, 2.39 vs. 2.20 in the L.A. shot.

    Point being: That "smiley face" situation is a problem at the Dome due to high-angle projection. It is not something that you would see (to that degree) at every Cinerama theatre.

    Matt
     

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  19. Derek Gee

    Derek Gee Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    I agree with this - genuine IMAX is superior in many ways to Cinerama. The join lines are simply terrible, and I've always been baffled why they didn't spend additional time/money to get rid of the join lines without going to the half-baked 70mm stuff. They were working on an experimental camera to do just that, but never finished it. (Plus, I've also wondered about why they didn't adopt the Cinemiracle technology after they purchased it. Dumb.)

    From what I've seen of the two systems, IMAX is more immersive and the sound system is better (being digital & higher wattage). Cinerama still has an advantage in brightness and sharpness. I wish IMAX would work on the brightness and sharpness, but since they're going digital, I'm not getting my hopes up for improved film technology.

    Derek
     
  20. mr_mjb1960

    mr_mjb1960 I'm a Tarrytowner 'Til I die!

    I can first remember when "This Is Cinerama!" came out in my local theaters..I was first in line! MAN! Talk about an Experience! Especially the "Roller Coaster Sequence"! It made you virtually sick..it was GREAT! A "You are there" feeling! HURRAH to the Return of Cinerama!:righton::goodie:
     
  21. apileocole

    apileocole Lush Life Gort

    Cinerama's flaws are a part of what is interesting about it. It's a "development branch" of cinema that's great to have preserved and available to learn about first hand, particularly for anyone going into any cinema fields. Learn the context, learn the strengths, learn the weaknesses, learn the ideas that compelled people and what didn't.

    Doesn't matter if IMAX is better or not anymore. Besides, it's clearly been decided by whomever the parties are who choose these things that all projected film is to be replaced by digital screens. Hopefully with everyone involved in developing the new technologies having seen genuine Cinerama and IMAX.
     
  22. benjaminhuf

    benjaminhuf Forum Resident

    I've never seen a real Cinerama film in that format. I have seen, however, the simulated "smileformat" which gives you a taste of what it's like.

    Where Cinerama seems to be superior to imax, to me, is in the curved screen--which mimics our peripheral vision. Imax doesn't give that. Cinerama still has an edge, I think, to the visceral "you are there" experience. Imax is good--don't get me wrong, but my guess (and I admit it is only that) is that in some areas Cinerama might be even better. It's worse, however, when it comes to the lines....

    Those lines, as you know, have been digitally erased for the most part for the blu-ray of HTWWW.
     
  23. Derek Gee

    Derek Gee Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    I disagree - IMAX does it one better - it covers more of your entire field of vision. That's why it's more immersive. The sweet spot in Cinerama is much narrower and the curved screen really does more to correct the image distortion than improve the perception of reality.

    The flaws of Cinerama are indeed part of it's charm, and the marketing of Cinerama is a playbook of what not to do. Remember the past IMAX management! (Down with Liemax!)

    Derek
     
  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    That is completely dependent on where you sit and how large and near the screen is.

    One thing that is often left out of the discussion is Cinerama's amazing depth of field, which IMAX only approaches on shots that use extremely wide-angle lenses. Many shots in Cinerama have nothing out of focus, which makes it kind of like looking out a large window (with two bothersome bars attached).

    Matt
     
  25. Jim G.

    Jim G. Geezer with a nice stereo!

    My mother took me to see "This is Cinerama", and, "The Seven Wonders of the World", when I was about six or seven, in Kansas City. Loved it! Have been interested in Egyptology ever since.

    Saw "How The West was Won", and, "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, World", at the Cooper in Denver. By the way, One of the best shows I saw at the Cooper was "Hunt for Red October". The underwater scenes of the submarines were almost lifesize on that huge screen. It was really incredible. Although Sean Connery's 10 ft. head was a little much.

    Oh, and how could I forget, Grand Prix!!!. The sound of the engines, the European scenes. That movie changed my life. I was 16 at the time. I have been involved in racing ever since (as a spectator, driver, and an owner). And I have traveled to six Grand Prix races in person. I had a friend whose policeman father said that the Denver cops were staying away from the theater when the movie let out so everyone could enjoy racing home after the movie! Wasn't Grand Prix shot in three projector Cinerama? Seems to me that it was, but that was a long time ago.

    By the way, the last movie to play at the Cooper was a Sunday showing of the 6hr. Gettysburg. It ( the large screen) made that movie seem real. Went with my wife and son to say goodby to the theater. It was turned into a SoundTrack store that went bust a few years later.

    That big screen was really an experience. The horizontal lines, join lines, etc, were not really a problem. After a few moments it was like your brain just ignored those problems and it became a very enjoyable format.
     
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