CD-R vs. original

I believe what it is exactly is the retrieval of the compressed format and not the burner. I've heard a ton of different peoples copies with a multitude of different burners, programs etc. and not 1 has been as good as the source so far. Keep in mind also that 1X burning is no longer available on new burners and hasn't been for 2 years now. Like I said, I was reading somewhere that what you and I are both experiencing could very well be because of the way we have EAC set up and perfect copies could in fact be possible. Be patient, I just have to find it again, find someone to help me install EAC on XP (I'm so XP illiterate ) and then I'll let you know in this thread.

 

Dave,

I'll stay tuned! I'm not sure what you mean though by "the retrieval of the compressed format". Where does the compression come in? Also, as I said to Grant, my question only has to do with burning, not ripping. I rarely rip CDs, and when I do, I can't use EAC, since I don't run Windows. I burn CD-Rs in order to archive analog sources; that's why I find the generational loss in sound quality so distressing. I put a lot of time and energy into needle drops (and cassette tape dubs); the loss of fidelity at the very last stage is so frustrating!

 

Wait a minute: I did not know you were doing needle drops. This changes the dynamic of your question. Are you transcribing your analog at 16-bit? Are you doing ANY type of processing or level changing? Is the soundcard you are using for the transfers up to snuff in the specs?

Two things: Though there is a concern for jitter, there is probably no need to throw out your burner. And, modern CD-R blanks have dye that is optimized for faster burning. One should not burn these at 1x, lest you run into problems. Dye splatter happens when the dye is optimised for a faster speed, but you burn at 1x. The laser grazes too long on one place and winds up forming slightly deformed pits that can cause an increase in jitter. The effects of higher jitter rates results in a slightly glassier or unfocused sound.

 

WAV has their own compression format when gathering music from either a CD or Vinyl was all I meant and the "sound problem" could be possibly retrieving from our HD's for the burn. Remember, Plextor is known to be in the top 2 or 3 burners consistantly for a reason.

Maybe what we're demanding just isn't possible via a computer extraction/burn at all. Personally, I would like to try the stand-alone that Steve uses. If this solution I come up with actually works, I will be sharing the info with everyone.

 

Again, I don't think the questions you raise about needle drops come into the picture. Remember, I'm comparing the final redbook file, played back off the HD, with the very same file burned to CD-R. Played back, it should sound almost the same, no?

I will try burning at 4x and see if it makes a difference.

 

The ONLY possibility for the sound discrepencies you hear MUST be due to your computer/software/sound configuration. If the differences are as drastic as you describe, something's wrong.

Hey, is it at all possible that you could have your CD ROM/burner running through the soundcard first, then through the motheboard for your onboard sound processing? I am unfamiliar with Macs, but don't see how the hardware setup could be much different than an IBM compatible.

 

Well, I wouldn't say the differences are drastic. Let's say they're subtle, but real. A subtle but definite loss of sound quality between HD and CD-R. I'm not sure about the soundcard question. How would I check for such a thing? I'll try playing the CD-R on my CDP and comparing with the sound file played back off the HD. Not apples to apples, but at least it removes the soundcard issue you mention from the equation.

 

Time to open up the box and check. Also, is there a way to see how things are routed from the system properties? And, again, you did check the playback properties of your audio software...

 

I'm still not completely following you -- sorry to be so dense. I play back the sound file from the HD using one of several programs that can play AIFF files: Toast, Jam, iTunes, or QuickTime. (AIFF is the Mac equivalent of WAV.) I play back the CD-R through the computer's own CD-ROM drive. In both cases the computer's built-in audio is used for playback. The sound card is not involved -- particularly in the case of my new G5, which doesn't yet have a sound card! So I think that variable can be eliminated.

All that's left is the burner and the playback transport. This discussion has opened my eyes to the role of the latter. That's a variable that can't be eliminated no matter what. So a direct comparison of what's on the HD versus what's on the CD-R can't really be done. Correct?

I tried playing the CD-R through my system and comparing that to the sound file played back off the HD. But there are far too many variables there. I guess the bottom line is that if I like the sound of the CD-R, I should leave it at that and not try to make A/B comparisons that can't be controlled! That way lies madness.

 

Hey RZ,

How did the disc sound when you played it back on your regular stereo system? (i. e., NOT on your computer.)

Could it be that some of the problems you describe are simply due to inaccurate PLAYBACK from your CD-rom drives?

What I mean is this:

IMHO, neither the Plextor nor the Superdrive in the G4 are capable of PLAYING BACK the CDR with the same quality you hear from the hard drive itself. The recording may be fine, but you may not be hearing it properly.

So who cares? The primary function of the Plextor and the Superdrive is to burn CDRs, or to load data (software) into the computer. No one ever said they had to be MUSICAL about it...

just throwing out an idea...

best of luck,

 

Well, SC, that was my thought, too. The CD-R played back on the stereo sounded fine. I thought it did sound a little "softer" than the HD playback, but as I said before, there are so many variables in that comparison that you really can't tell anything from it. Again, if the CD-Rs sound good to me on their own I'm not going to get hung up on comparing them with the HD playback.

OTOH, I am getting a Yamaha F1 burner -- yes, just like Grant has! I bought it used on eBay for $100, so it was a more cost-effective option than a SCSI card for my G5 ($285 + shipping + tax). I'll let you all know if it makes a difference.

 

Ouch! I hope not. Is there any easy way to tell the good from the bad (other then the burner not working, I mean)? I bought the external USB model -- does this one also suffer from the problems of the bad first batch? One problem is, as a Mac user I generally can't install firmware upgrades or patches -- at least not on the Plextor. I had to send mine back to the factory to have the firmware upgraded.

 

I got the F1 today. It was manufactured in August 2002. Does that mean it's from the problematic first batch? Also, when it's spinning, it makes a whirring/ticking noise, which in a CDP I would associate with the spindle motor. Does yours do this? I'm going to try burning with it tonight – wish me luck!

 

You got the bad one. That's probably why they sold it on E-Bay. Shame they sold it to your for what they probably paid for it.

The corrected ones were manufactured starting in November.

However, you might be able to slide if you install a firmware patch. It may still be available on the Yamaha site.

 

Grant, what's bad about the bad one? I burned a couple of discs with it today and they seemed to come out OK. It stopped making that noise, too.

UPDATE: The Yamaha website has no firmware updates. When you follow that link you get a message saying "Yamaha has ceased production of all CD-R/RW models. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your patronage." Seems I'm SOL.

 

Interestingly, while my complaint about the Plextor was that burns made with it sounded a bit "softer" than the source AIFF file played back off the HD, the Yamaha seems to have just the opposite quality. That is, burns made with it sound a bit "harder" than the source AIFF file. I hope this is not a symptom of increased jitter, whether caused by the USB interface or otherwise.

My next step will be to set up an A/B between the Plextor and the Yamaha. This will be a major PITA. I'll put the SCSI card back in the G4 (I had taken it out), and hook up the Plextor. Then I'll rip a CD, and burn copies on each drive using the same resulting AIFF files. Then compare each burn with the original CD. Should have time to do all that in the next month or two...

 

Well, my Yamaha F1 is pretty quiet, although it is an internal unit. One tip is that you may want to keep your burn speed low, at around 4x.

As far as sound goes, I find the sound to be warm and smooth. Yes, I attribute it to the lower jitter I get when burning at 4x or 8x. Any higher, and I get that hard, steely, cold sound.

 

Thanks for your comments, Grant. But to repeat my earlier question, what's bad about the bad burner? What's wrong with it? What should I watch out for?

 

I can't find the thread now, but two years ago, there was a big 'ol thread about this very burner. Not too many people were happy about it. Seems it broke down quite dast, and there were reports of it literally spinning out of control to the point of a CD-R disintergrating inside. Some said it made discs that became unreadable. Keep in mind that they were talking about the first batch of the burners. Yamaha realized there were problems and corrected it with an improved model and a firmware update.

I'm supposing that if the unit continues to perform OK, and the CD-Rs you make play OK on all burners, i'd say you're OK.

The newer burners came in white boxes, and the older ones in grey boxes.

 

It eats newborns for breakfast! Keep the wife and kids far, far away!

 

Thanks again, Grant. I'll keep a close eye on the burner and see if it misbehaves. Maybe I'll search eBay for a "good" burner to keep as a backup.

OK, now for an answer to my original question: why do my CD-R burns not sound as good as the sound file they are made from, played back off my computer's HD? A fellow named Mike Richter writes the following:

This is the only reasonable explanation I have seen. Richter is saying that even bit-identical burns may sound different – worse – than the source, because your CDP may not be able to read them as well. People have advanced similar explanations for supposed differences between identical CDs pressed at different plants.

Andy McFadden elaborates as follows on his CD-Recordable FAQ site:

Which brings me to my next subject: Yamaha's Audio Master Quality feature. Again, Andy McFadden has an explanation:

The link to Yamaha no longer works, leaving McFadden's as the only explanation I've been able to find.

My very preliminary impression – it works! I've only done a quick-and-dirty comparison, mind you. A real test would require instantaneous A/B comparison, which I can't do because I don't have two identical CD players. Still, my first impression is that the AMQ burn beats the ordinary burn – less "digital" sound, better detail, space, and separation of instruments. In short, what you would expect if it works as advertised. I'll do some more comparisons to confirm this, but my conclusion so far is that I should do all my burns using MQR, if the program is short enough (63 min. or less).

Grant or other F1 owners: do you use MQR? Why or why not?

 

Hi,

I am aware of the explainations of jitter. I agree.

I USED to use AMQ when I could, but not anymore. Nero no longer supports it. Still, I am making fine burns on the Yamaha as long as I keep the speed to 4x-8x for music. I mostly use Fuji (made in Japan) blanks.