Caravan - In the Land of Grey and Pink - Deluxe Edition remixed by Steven Wilson

I cannot vouch for the stereo remix, but the 5.1 remix sounds superb to me.

 

I'm sure the 5.1 is fine. It can't be disappointing, after all, it's surround, it's new and it's mixed by SW, so there is an incentive.

But I'm first and foremost a stereo man, and the stereo remix clearly doesn't sound as good as it should have. I would have settled for a CD. At least it would not have the lossy Dullby Digital sound signature.

Why couldn't they have taken a clue from the King Crimson reissues?

 

There is a surprising lack of standardisation of format for these deluxe editions.

The Who - My Generation - single layer SACD
David Bowie - self titled - 2 CDs
Rush - blu-ray + CD
Caravan - DVD-V + CDs

I wish they would standardise:-

three options

1) single disc blu-ray for uncompressed 24/96 multi-channel and stereo sound and video.
2) CD + DVD-V
3) download as mp3, wav or hi-res flac

 

4) CD + DVD-A (with a DVD-V portion) like the King Crimson reissues does it for me.
Like that the DVD is playable everywhere and the audiophiles still get their lossless sound.
Plus you can have videos and the CD to easily rip/listen.

 

Agreed. Everybody's happy this way.

 

I'm still waiting on my copy. For some reason, Amazon strung me out on this one which is somewhat unusual.

 

Just got it today! This is just about the best DD 5.1 mix I've ever heard. I would, like many here, have prefered a high-res/lossless option but man, oh, man---I don't see how anyone could complain after hearing the 5.1 they did include. It's very good!

 

On the positive side, the alternate versions and the live are very very nice.

The alternate mix of "Nine Feet Underground" by Steven Wilson on CD1 is a joy to listen to.

The booklet is OK.

It's really too bad for the stereo remix, it they could clearly sound better.

 

You mean - no stereo PCM on that DVD? They obviously should rename the whole series to "Da Looks Editions" then...

 

has anybody the shm SACD version issued in japan and this one as to compare ?

 

Yep. I've got every version except the previous "standard" remaster. I haven't compared the two you speak of.

BTW, does anyone know if the old remaster and disc 1 of the Deluxe contain the same mastering for the album tracks?
The old remaster being inferior to the SHM-SACD, there could lie your answer.

 

Yes, no lossless tracks. And it's a loss. It is obviously the fault of the record company. A Hi-Res stereo track can fit easily on the DVD and still be playable everywhere.

 

I felt the same way. The 5.1 mix is amazing. Having listened to it a few times now, I would not have known it was Dolby Digital until I saw the display on my receiver.

I still need to hear the new stereo remixes that Steven Wilson did, but other than the lack of a hi-res mix, and some minor packaging gripes, the purchase was definitely worth the price to me.

I have no other version with which to compare this Deluxe Edition, but to my ears, the original mix gives the impression that the original recording was very well done.

 

Agreed. I got my copy a few days ago and listened to the surround mix today. I knew it was Dolby Digital going in, but it sure sounds good. It sounded so good, both sonically and "musically" (i.e., the new surround mix), that I could only imagine how great it would have sounded had they released it on DVD-Audio or SACD.

Regardless, the Dolby Digital 5.1 mix sounds BETTER than some DVD-Audio or SACD discs I own, it is that good (sonically).

 

I ripped the Steven Wilson stereo mix from the DVD to burn to CD. DVD Audio Extractor recognised it as 16bit 48k. After ripping I opened it in Wavelab and had a look at it in the spectrum analyser and there appears to be a full audio spectrum there (up to about 22k).

I understand that this is Dolby Digital but in what way is it lossy? I'm afraid I don't know how DD encoding works but is it possible that it is at least PCM standard?

 

Dolby Digital, like MP3, is a lossy codec, meaning that the "master" you encode in DD, doesn't decode as the "master". Something is lost in order to gain room.
DD has its own methods of compressing the sound, its own psycho-acoustic algorythms: unlike MP3 it doesn't cut off frequencies above 15kHz, but imparts other artefacts on the sound. The extremes are dulled: bass is limp and soft, highs are dirty and have phase problems; and the mediums are thick and ill-defined.
It isn't PCM, because PCM is an uncompressed format.

For example, mathematically speaking, the masters, in 24/48 PCM use 2304kbps. The Dolby Digital stereo track in 16/48 use 192kilobits per second. CD quality at 16/44.1 PCM is 1411kbps... You can't achieve that huge a compression without a trade-off.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I was just being a bit too hopeful. Not even going to waste a Cd on it now. Will just add it to iTunes where it belongs.

 

I just cleaned and spun all four sides. The packaging is nice, but that is where it ends for me. This vinyl is a mess, all four sides littered with rice crispies and loud pops. I stopped counting after 100. As far as sonics go, I'll spare you all the jargon, but I will say that I certainly prefer the original Deram. I have yet to get a nice pressing from gzvinyl, and this issue is no exception. I now wish I had spent the money on the SHM-SACD. Oh well, live and learn as they say.

 

I'm rather stunned to not see a single mention of the issue that on disc 3 on the new 5.1 and stereo mixes by Steven Wilson that the opening track "Golf Girl" is missing the first two notes. The song properly starts with a bass drum hit followed by a descending trumpet line, and on both these new mixes, the drum hit and first trumpet note are missing. It cuts in mid-line and sounds awful, like a record skip. The regular stereo CD version on disc 1 is fine.

I don't see any way logically this could be a defect unique to my copy or a problem with my Pioneer DVD 5.1 player since it's only happening on that one song on both versions on disc 3, so presumably it has to be a mastering/pressing error. Which brings up two questions: 1. how did this get past an quality control, band members, Steven Wilson etc. anyone who you'd think would be provided a test pressing to check it before going to factory press, and 2. how has this not been noticed and commented on by the intensely observant ears of SH fans in this thread? It's not like something buried in the middle of the album; it's the opening notes of the opening track!

I can't imagine Mr. Wilson is happy about this; a fix, perhaps, Universal?

 

Whoa... step back a second.

You assume a lot. First of all I just checked my DVD and it plays fine. Both Steve Wilson mixes on the DVD have a drum hit or two before the trumpet line comes in. No "defect" on my copy.

My DVD is fine, which then leads me to the assumption that your DVD player (which you don't mention fully what model - not that would mean I could give a definitive answer) is at fault here. There have been known issues with certain DVDs and DVD players - and how they are hooked up to a TV, receiver, pre-pro, etc - or just the actions of the players with certain discs themselves.

The reason it wasn't mentioned by anyone else, is because the defect doesn't appear to be on the disc. As I said both Steve Wilson mixes on the DVD start fine on my players (and I have multiple DVD, Blu-Ray, DVD-Audio players).

Did you try another DVD player? Don't condemn the disc until you try to exhaust all possible reasons for your disc/player combination doing what it is doing.

 

I do step back, as after trying it in one of my other non-surround DVD players as you suggested it does play fine. The 5.1/SACD Pioneer on which the issue occurs is a DV-588A, hooked up to a Yamaha RX-V750 7-speaker surround system. It was set up by the dealer/installer I purchased the system from many years ago, as I am quite admittedly deer-in-the-headlight-itus when it comes to tech issues.

But, it is still strange that I have never had this issue with any other 5.1 DVD-A, SACD, 5.1 Duel-discs etc. until this one. I just popped in five other 5.1 titles, including Crimson ITWOP etc. and they all play the opening tracks fine on the 588; it is equally odd that the exact same "Golf Girl" clipped-intro issue exists separately and identically on both the 5.1 and new stereo mixes on the DVD disc 3.

I can't explain it, but I guess it's the player...

 

Is that because the bass sound 'limp and soft' to you, the highs 'dirty', you hear phase problems, and the mediums [sic] sound 'thick and ill-defined'?



and please NB:

"Neither Dolby Digital nor DTS allocate a fixed numbers of bits to any channel. Instead, Dolby Digital and DTS feed their sub-bands/channels from 'global bit-pools'; the total number of bits allocated to any single channel constantly varies as a result."

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_1a.asp

 

Is that Dave Sinclair singing on the alternate stereo mix of Nine Feet Underground?? If so, why didn't he sing more?! He has a lovely voice.

 

Thanks for these very useful precisions.
I was trying to be as concise and understandable as possible.

And thanks for being so nice, as always.

 

You're welcome.

You also wrote:

And just in case anyone is confused by that: the bitrate of the DD stereo tracks (sample rate: 48kHz) on the Caravan disc is 256kbps , not 192.

It's 448kbps for the 5.1 tracks.

(At least, that's what foobar2000 is showing me when I display track properties.)