Bowie's mix of Raw Power

Thanks for the clips Tim. They both sound terrible, just in different ways. The Bowie is really muddy. The Iggy has no dynamic range, is very distorted and James' guitar is too shrill. I guess I prefer the Bowie mix of the album. I think the Bowie mix of Your Pretty Face might benefit from some drastic EQ. I guess I should re-evaluate the Bowie mix. I remember greatly prefering the Iggy remixes of Penetration, I Need Somebody and Shake Appeal but it's been a few years since I've heard them.

 

James Williamson summed up what many were thinking when he said he never liked the Bowie mix until he heard the Iggy mix!

Interview with James Williamson

"Bowie's not my favorite guy, but I have to say that overall, I think he did a pretty good job."

Given that Bowie also co-produced Lou Reed's excellent sounding "Transformer" around the same time and also did a good job producing Mott The Hoople's "All The Young Dudes" as well, I'd have to say the problem was undoubtedly the way "Raw Power" was recorded. Bowie was only brought in to try and fix up a bad job. Iggy can't have been too worried about Bowie's mix at the time because he had no problem getting Bowie to produce 3 of his later albums...

So yeah, great great album, but not a great recording. I'm sure many of us would happier if it sounded more like "Fun House" or something, and I'm sure Bowie would have liked that too, but it just was never going to happen.

 

Search and Destroy, Shake Appeal, and Raw Power always sounded just fine to me on the original mix.

I used to prefer Iggy's remix, but have swung back a bit to the original now.

Search and Destroy, to me, always sounded like the be all and end all of low, aggressive music. The Who to the nth power. Williamson's guitar was like getting slashed in the face by a straight razor. The bass wasn't ever really supposed to be there, IMHO.

Avoid Rough Power at all costs. It sounds absolutely abysmal. I tried hard to like it, but that quasi-bootleg should never have been allowed out the door.

 

I thought this too, but I found at a while ago that I was wrong. Iggy was not only worried, but hateful and angry about the mix. Check out this revelatory article by Lester Bangs: http://www.creemmagazine.com/_site/BeatGoesOn/IggyPop/HoneyComeBeMyEnemy0508.html
Relevant quote:

About the solo albums, I think they patched things up again in Berlin. "That ****in' carrottop" certainly isn't a very nice characteristic.
(Follow the link for uncensored language.)

 

It seems to me there is scope for a 3rd mix, with more of the sound the Ig wants but without the unnecessary added distortion.

Tim

 

I don't think I've ever anticipated getting a record more than when I was just discovering the Stooges, and got my local mall-based record store to special-order an import pressing of Raw Power for me out of the Jem Records catalog (this was some time after it was out of print in the US). First time I played it, I was completely blown away - the pre-Williamson era version of the band might be the canonical Stooges, but I'll probably always prefer the Raw Power-era version since that record and Metallic KO were my first exposure to the Stooges.

Rough Power is awful - to add insult to injury, the first copy of it that I bought turned out to be defective and wouldn't play. Fortunately, the store I bought it at didn't have any more copies, so I just got a refund. The UK-based label Easy Action released a box set a couple of years ago called Heavy Liquid which contains all of the Rough Power material as well as most of the other surviving material/outtakes from the Raw Power period. The sound quality is pretty variable, ranging from acceptable to outright bad, but for diehard fans it's essential.

 

I thought Bowie was there from day 1 of recording, even if he didn't always give it his full attention. I think the result was a purposeful artistic decision on his part, that was allowed because Iggy was assured by Bowie that Pop's original mix of the track he felt most strongly about ("Search & Destroy"), is what was used on the record.

Which makes it all the more odd that Iggy would subsequently complain about Bowie's mixing choices. Since it seems to me that Bowie seems to have basically used the sound of that track as the basis for the entire album's mixing.

Maybe Iggy only wanted that one song to sound like that? Making the entire album sound like that resulted in a cool/punk sound, but not a sound that would sell to the mainstream. I think, as subsequent Iggy recordings show, (including the following year's fairly commercial pop songs written with Williamson, but then shelved due to lack of label interest) that he regretted the fact that 'Raw Power' didn't sell any better than their first two albums. Why else would he radically change his own original mix for S&D, along with everything else for the '97 remix?

As for Williamson's comments. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. But may he have expected to benefit more, financially speaking, from the new remix than what Iggy allowed him? That could have influence over one's opinion.

I like the idea behind the original album mix/the philosophy behind the S&D sound, but I don't think it's practical. I like the guitar being so in your face, but it makes its disappearance during the breaks too abrupt. You go from no bass/no drums/lots of lead guitar, to absolutely nothing during the sections where Williamson isn't playing...

 

I agree, but it wouldn't be "punk" enough for Iggy, or the fans of the old original/hearing damage inducing mix...

 

YES

 

Sorry for the threadcrap, but the Iggy & the Stooges just got screwed over again by the R&R HOF! Does anybody else think that if the morons on the nominating committee would stop splitting their votes between Iggy Pop and The Stooges, that at the very least Iggy would've been in years ago? That way the voters who don't know any better would be allowed to include Iggy's 'Idiot' and 'Lust For Life' albums, in addition to the Stooges. While the group's name would not technically be in, they would still be represented by default. At least their most important group member would be there to represent on their behalf...

 

I'm not so sure, you can do a lots of things with mastering, and I have the feeling that, many of the band music is separated exactly the same on both mixes. It couldn't be three tracks thought, the drums, bass, rythm guitar are in stereo, so it's 4 tracks minimum. (ie the band in stereo + voice + lead).
I could be wrong, but my guess is, Iggy worked on the voice, the leads, for the remix, and just pushed the rest way out there, doing a lot of EQ to make it stand out.
Henry Rollins, who found the master, didn't give too much indication about this in his old Re-Search interview.

 

I just relistened to both Search & Destroy Iggy / Bowie mixes, and I have the feeling the backing band might actually be mono.
Iggy's sounds in fake, Capitol sixties stereo, meaning one channel is ultra trebly, while the other, featuring the same mix of bass, rythm guitar and drums, sound bassy.
My guess is : they duplicated, at least on this particular track, the band track (ie the one Bowie says only feature the music, bass, rythm and drums mixed together), to make some kind of stereo separation, and tweaked the EQ on both to make it sound more wide.
All the overdubs are cleary mixed differently over all that.
Some other people input, (who owns both mixes on CD) would be great.

 

I just did a mash up of both versions of Gimmie Danger. Interesting to see that thought the drums always remain in synch, both vocals doesn't match most of the times. When the vocals are identical, they are perfectly in synch sometimes, and not some other times, suggesting some extensive digital touch up to put words exactly in rythm. Either Iggy use some alternate vocal track on the song, or probably re-recorded some extra vocals part.
Anyone heard this story before ?

 

Also one or the other CD have the phase inverted. Dunno which one is the right one... Regarding the voice, they don't match when they don't sing the same inflexions at all many times...

 

Raw Power

One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is the old story that the original CD release was messed up in some way. I've read in various places that the mastering got screwed up on the 1990 CD release, so it's not a "true" represenation of the original LP release.

I have the '90 CD, but not the vinyl. Someone burned it for me, and after comparing it with the CD, I thought they sounded the same. Can anyone confirm this?

The biggest difference between the original mix and the Iggy remix for me is that most of Williamson's guitar effects are missing from the Iggy mix. As someone else mentioned, the Iggy mix of "Gimme Danger" is an abomination. How could he remove those ultra-cool guitar effects from the fade?

Also, Iggy doesn't really "complain" about the Bowie mix. If you read his comments in the remix's liner notes, he basically says that Bowie's mix is the best!

Those looking for at least two Bowie-mixed tracks from Raw Power, in remastered form, should seek out the Iggy compilation CD "Nude and Rude." It came out in '96, the year before his Raw Power remix, and features the Bowie mixes of Search and Destroy and Gimme Danger in remastered form.

 

i have both... never did a/b tests, but i don't recall the CD sounding radically inferior to the LP.

Iggy mentions in the remix liner notes that the original CD sounded really crappy. but then again, he's responsible for the remix, one of the worst-sounding CDs ever, so i don't think i trust his ears.

 

Yes, I mentionned Nude & Rude too... on some other thread !
My guess is the phase is inverted on the original CD, easy to fix and reburn.
However, I still fails to see someone reporting that some of those "wooo !" that were nowhere to be heard on the original, may have been re-recorded in 1997 by Iggy, as well as some redone vocal tracks. They definetely don't sound the same when you mash up in synch the tracks.
I think actually Iggy is not responsible for the remix, Sony were going to do it, with or without him, and he just went along cos he was damned right to be involved : he sung on the thing !
However, my feeling is, he was surrounded by Sony leechers and wankers, who lured him into doing some grungy remix to sound great in their car stereos, yuppies musicians post grunge wannabees, who actually didn't give a **** about him (as they were going to do it anyway, as Iggy says in interviews).
So I myself do not blame the Ig, I blame the corporate croakroaches. This remix is the result of some evil, corporate, collective croakroaches, and Iggy was just lured in for the credibility of it. That's my take on it. I mean, don't tell me that all these guest stars on Skull Ring were Iggy's idea.

 

I have an original vinyl pressing of the album, but for years felt that the mix was muddy and weak - a great album weakened by terrible recording and mixing. I liked the remix upon purchasing it, but it hasn't gotten a lot of play, perhaps due to the fact that it is so "in your face". Maybe a straight mono mix with a volume increase would have done the trick...

 

Maybe we'll all have to track down a copy of the vinyl from the 70's and be done with it!

 

Does anyone want to hear a mash up of both mixes of Gimmie Danger ? Am I allowed to post a link here to the full song ?

 

PM it to me if you don't post it. I wants to hear.

 

Raw Power

In many ways, the demos the Stooges recorded in London prior to the Raw Power sessions (ie "I Hate You," "I Got a Right," "Gimme Some Skin,"...tracks which Mainman REJECTED) sound BETTER than either of the Raw Power releases. Every instrument comes in crisp and clear; the only problem is, Williamson only layed down one guitar track on these demos.

Rumor was a few years back that Bowie was going to release a "Raw Power Sessions" boxset, with all the tracks recorded in the sessions, plus a remaster of his original mix. Not sure if this will ever happen?

I love the Fun House-era Stooges, too, but for me...the Williamson-era Stooges were everything the post-Exile on Main Street Rollling Stones SHOULD have been.

 

This whole thread gave me an idea. I'm starting work on a Raw Power remix project called RAW POWERS. I'll open a myspace, where we will post nothing but mashups of differents mixes of RAW POWER 73, 97 & Rough Power. Anyone wanna join ? hahaha

 

Mick Rock's book

Does anyone have Mick Rock's "Raw Power" book? Made up of photos from the Stooges concert in London, in 1972. I've thought about picking it up. Is it mostly just shots of Iggy, or are there photos of the rest of the group -- in the "Ziggy Stardust" styles Bowie gave them?

 

Except for the mastering, the remix of 'Raw Power' is for the most part superior to the original. I own the original cd and the '96 'Nude & Rude' compilation. Even though both "Search & Destroy" and "Gimme Danger" are mastered much better on that compilation, it doesn't much matter. Both mixes are so poor/amateurish, they make the ears hurt. There is little bass,too much midrange, and no high end. Maybe this was purposely intended by Bowie. I don't care. Just because Lou Reed took perfectly good mixes of the third/self-titled Velvet's album and purposely tried to make them sound worse, doesn't mean I'm not going to listen to the engineer's original mix instead. The remix of 'Raw Power' is not 100% faithful to the original, and doesn't try to be. James Williamson had no say in the original mix, and had no say in the remix. The mixes he and Iggy made before Bowie arrived for the official start of the recording sessions, are just as bad as the original mix (as heard on various bootlegs).

Compare this record to the first two Stooges album or, better yet, just 'Funhouse'. Perfectly normal mixing. Iggy & the Stooges were fired by their label, and weren't working. David Bowie saw a chance to resurrect their career, and give them a new sound. After all, if the first two albums tanked, why not try something different for this one? Bowie was doing a lot of this kind of thing at the time. He gave Lou Reed a complete makeover in terms of look and sound for the 'Transformer' album, after Reed's bland/first solo album tanked. Reed had a hit single and album. Mott The Hoople was pretty much finished, until Bowie came along. He wrote them a hit, and they became a successful glam-rock band (which was a very different style to what they had been doing).

They and Reed pretty much let Bowie do whatever he wanted. A year later, Iggy was in the same position. He re-assembled a new line-up for the Stooges and, at first, didn't want to be told what to do. They appreciated the chance Bowie gave them to make another record, but wanted to do it themselves. I think Pop kind of relayed this to Bowie, and David stayed away at first. But when Bowie's label heard the initial rough mixes, they freaked out. I think this finally beat down Iggy to the point of saying, "ok, I give". He knew that Bowie was going to have to produce for the record to get released. He also knew Bowie liked having complete control over such projects.

Iggy already felt defeated, but knew Bowie's track record of successful re-invention. And even though Iggy wanted success on his own terms, the most important thing was for this record to be successful. He knew Bowie was going to change the band's sound, but was hoping this would at least bring success. So, Bowie did his thing while Iggy resented it the whole time. Bowie seemed to treat it as an art/punk experiment. I think he purposely wanted to make it sound messed-up, but figured he was enough of genius that it could be a hit anyway. As we all know Iggy hated the mixes, the record tanked (despite extensive touring), and Iggy turned into a bit of a mess.

Sure, later on when Bowie helped him to great critical (and limited commercial success), Iggy would say that the 'Raw Power' mixes were fine, and everything was good. But that wasn't the truth. Iggy was never happy with the mixes. Because of the record's cult status, the record label figured money could be made by having the album "mixed the way it was always supposed to be". That's not what happened, Iggy was a much different guy 25 years later. He'd had a fairly successful solo career and was allowed to produce his own stuff after a while. So, of course that was going to influence how the "new" 'Raw Power' turned out. He knew how to mix competently, and what was expected of a commercial record in 1997. So, he made it loud, like everything else at the time. It's obviously not a definitive mix, but it is competent. Ideally, an independent third party should have been brought in to do it, as opposed to modern-day Iggy. But part of the whole reason RCA was willing to spend money on a remix/re-release of a cult record, was because of Iggy being involved. They figured that would help to sell more copies.

So, it is what it is. Hopefully, someday, the record label will be willing to fund another mix. But it will have to wait. It's not worth it economically right now. It would certainly help if Iggy and/or the Stooges were to be allowed in the Rock Hall Of Fame. That's always good publicity for re-releasing things. Or maybe if this upcoming "reunion" tour becomes a big deal. But something needs to happen soon, because the cd is quickly dying. And the Stooges may be critical darlings, but their old albums don't really sell that well. Maybe we'll just have to live with the choice of having either the original/sloppy, but well mastered used cd. Or, the revisionist/well-mixed, but badly mastered current edition...